What Exactly Is the Connection Between Biblical Prophecy and the Nation of Israel?

Dr. John Ankerberg: Welcome! We’re glad that you’ve joined us tonight. We’re here with Dr. Jimmy DeYoung, an international journalist who is presently living and reporting from Jerusalem, Israel. Also, Dr. Renald Showers, a professor who has served on the faculties of Lancaster Bible College, Moody Bible Institute, and Philadelphia College of the Bible. He’s written a lot of books and magazine articles. And gentlemen, we’re glad that you’re here tonight.

Our topic is: “Current World Events and Biblical Prophecy.” I’d like to start off with something that God in the Bible says to the world. He says,
“I am God and there is no other. I am God and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times what is still to come; I say, my purpose will stand and I will do all that I please. What I have said, that I will bring about.” No other religious books across the world make those kind of statements—only the God of the Bible. He is saying, I exist, and let’s put the evidence on the table—biblical prophecy.

We have Messianic prophecy concerning Jesus Christ, but our topic tonight has to do with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, the event of the Rapture, the events surrounding those things, and Israel. Now, for a lot of our people in the audience, Jimmy, they’re wondering why, when we talk about biblical prophecy and world events, we would even focus on the land of Israel. You are right there in Jerusalem. What is the connection between biblical prophecy, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, and why are we starting with the nation of Israel?

Dr. Jimmy DeYoung: Well, Israel is God’s time piece, and we can understand exactly where God is in His prophetic scenario that is laid out for us in the Word of God by simply looking at Israel. The key to understanding all of prophecy is found in the Book of Daniel, Chapter 9 and verse 24, where He said, in effect, “I have a special plan for a special people in a special place.” Those special people were Jewish people; that special place is the city of Jerusalem. As you focus on those two entities, the city of Jerusalem and the Jewish people, you will understand what God is doing and uniquely in this time in which we’re living, God, who said He had a plan for Israel, is starting to bring that into fulfillment.

Ankerberg: Rennie, where does God make some of these predictions about Israel? Maybe let’s start with the huge amount of people that are coming from all over the world back into Israel. Where does God say that in Scripture?

Dr. Renald Showers: Well, the Lord foretold that in a number of the Prophets, John, in the Old Testament. I was just teaching the Book of Micah this morning and in the Book of Micah God foretold that before the Millennium one of the things that would have to happen is that Jews would be regathered from all over the world back to their homeland. And the Prophet Zechariah indicates that they will be there in the end times. Joel indicates they will be there in the end times, Joel 2 and 3. Ezekiel 38 makes it very clear that Israel will be back in their homeland in the latter days. So many of the Old Testament prophets by revelation of God made that very, very clear.

DeYoung: You know, I see in Ezekiel 37, John, that when He gave us the story of the valley of dry bones and then He explains what He was talking about when He was saying the bones are going to come together; the bones will have flesh upon them and then these flesh-covered bones will be filled with the breath of life. And He said, now, if you want to know what I’m talking about, the next verse, He said, “Those bones are the whole house of Israel.” They’ll be gathered. And out of 108 nations of the world, they have been gathered.

Since I’ve lived in Jerusalem as my full-time residency since 1991, we’ve seen 750,000 Soviet Jews immigrate, make hegira, to the land of Israel. Jeremiah 16, Jeremiah 23, Jeremiah 31, Zechariah 2 all said at the time of the end—we’ll not talk about the exodus out of Egypt anymore, but instead we’ll talk about the exodus out of the North, and that’s when I’m gathering nations from all nations of the world.

Let me just tell one little story. May 24, 1991, as a journalist living in Jerusalem, I would monitor other news gathering organizations. That afternoon I was listening to the BBC. As I was listening, I heard somebody give a report about “Operation Solomon.” I wasn’t exactly sure what that was, but I got on the line to some of my unnamed sources, and I found out exactly, possibly at least, what it was talking about. So I made an educated guess and reported over a news network here in the United States, beating ABC, NBC, CBS, all of them by about two and a half hours. “Operation Solomon.” Forty-two aircraft took off on a Friday. Now, airplanes don’t fly in Israel on Friday. That’s sabbat, that’s the Sabbath. They took off; they flew to Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. Meanwhile, one of the most unbelievable logistics situations I’ve ever seen in my life—15,000 Ethiopian Jews were making their way towards the airport. Twenty-eight aircraft in the air at one time with the greatest airlift in 24 hours that the world has ever seen—15,000 Ethiopian Jews were transported to Israel.

By the way, interesting little story. One 747 that normally carries about 500 people taking up every seat. They had 1,087 people on the airplane, and while the flight was in the air from Addis Ababa, Ethiopia to Ben Gurion Airport, seven babies were born in the air. But as I saw this and as my wife and I went to greet these Ethiopian Jews making their way into the country, as we were talking to them, as we were endeavoring to help to feed them because they didn’t know how to open a yogurt container or to crack a boiled egg, we were feeding them. Tears started to come in my eyes as I thought about Zephaniah 3:10 where it seems to allude at the time of the end God will reach into Ethiopia and bring His prize back to His land, back to Jerusalem. That’s what we’re seeing unfold right now in the city of Jerusalem and throughout all of Israel.

Ankerberg: God says in Zechariah 12, “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem.” What is this “cup of trembling” all about?

DeYoung: I believe it’s talking about that Jerusalem is going to be intoxicating. When you saw the cup and it was trembling, Proverbs, remember, it says, “Don’t go near that cup when the ingredients in the cup are moving.” I think what it’s talking about in the end times there are going to be enemies of Israel, those who want to take over and take charge of Jerusalem which God has given to the Jewish people for His special purpose, and they are going to be intoxicated with power. For example, 1994, Bill Clinton came for his first visit to Israel. He came and in the Arabah they signed the peace agreement between Israel and Jordan. But then he came into Jerusalem. As a journalist I was covering this situation and Bill Clinton said he wanted to go into the old city and up onto the Temple Mount. He had never been there. Wanted to do some sightseeing. The Mayor of Jerusalem, Eherd Olmert, said, “I’ll be happy to take you up there.” When he said that, Yasser Arafat said, “You will not take him up there! Nobody will take him up there!” They locked every single gate to the Temple Mount. They put armed Palestinian guards behind them. And Yasser Arafat made the statement, “Nobody goes on the Temple Mount unless I take them up there and do the tour with them.” Well, this man has become intoxicated with power controlling what is the most important spot on the face of the earth for the Jewish people.

And you know, for over 1,305 years, from 691 when that Dome of the Rock was put on the spot where the temples stood in the past, they have controlled the Temple Mount area. That’s longer than both the first and the second temple stood up there. I think the “cup of trembling” is talking about those who will be intoxicated with power as it relates to the city of Jerusalem.

Showers: John, in Revelation 16:12-16 John records what will transpire when the sixth bowl judgment is poured out upon planet earth in the Tribulation. That’s the next to the last judgment in the Tribulation, so he’s recording what is going to happen almost at the end of that seven-year period. And he saw Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet sending demons into the world to persuade all the rulers of all the Gentile nations of the world to march their armies to the land of Israel for Armageddon. And Zechariah 12-14 talks about their coming up there. They sweep across the land of Israel, according to Zechariah 14 in the opening verses. They come and completely surround the city of Jerusalem. They begin systematically destroying the city of Jerusalem. But when they do that, the Messiah, the Lord Jesus, comes out of Heaven and Zechariah 14 says that’s when He will go to war and He will destroy these godless forces that are there having the city of Jerusalem surrounded.

Interestingly, there’s a non-government, secular intelligence agency in Great Britain, in light of trends going on in the world and reports they get daily from intelligence agents all over the world, they say this: “It is therefore on the platform of Palestine and at the gates of Jerusalem that the present epic will face its ultimate drama.” That’s what a secular intelligence agency says in light of current trends. That’s exactly what the Word of God is foretelling. Jerusalem will be a cup of trembling to the nations because Christ will destroy their armies outside its gates.

Ankerberg: Alright, we’re going to take a break here and we’re going to come back after the break and talk about what really happened when Netanyahu opened the tunnel near the Temple Mount and Arafat created a mini-war. I don’t think our people that are listening nor our people in the audience right here realize how close we came to war. And Jimmy, you were there and I want you to tell us about it. We’re going to take a break and come right back, so stick with us.

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Ankerberg: Alright we’re back and we’re talking about “Current World Events and Biblical Prophecy” with Dr. Jimmy DeYoung, an international journalist living in Jerusalem and reporting from there, and Dr. Renald Showers who is a professor and has written many books on biblical prophecy. Guys, what I’d like to talk about is an event that happened just from the time we’re taping the program, just a few weeks ago, basically, when Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel, opened up a tunnel close to the Temple Mount and the world over there actually erupted. I heard over a thousand people were injured and went to the hospital. There were about 78 people who died. Then Israel finally called tanks out into some of the cities, the first time since the last war.

Now, when that event happened, how close to war did we get? I’d like to give a couple of quotes and then I’d like Jimmy, because you were there, to tell us. King Hussein of Jordan, who is supposed to be as about as friendly an Arab as you can get in the Middle East in terms of Israel, he said, just 30 days ago, “Unless definite steps are taken to advance negotiation with the Palestinians, the regions could be headed for war.” This was printed in Time magazine, October 19. Hosni Mubarak, the president of Egypt, he snubbed Clinton. Didn’t even come to the peace talks in Washington. He said, “I am very, very, very upset! The situation is boiling. The people are fed up all over the Arab world.”

Yasser Arafat, in the midst of that, he said, “The Palestinian Arabs will not be forced to kneel for peace.”

And Netanyahu said in Time magazine, he was asked the question at the time of the violence, said, “Arafat cynically manipulated the tunnel issue. Has your perception changed?” Netanyahu said, “No. The kind of rhetoric, articles and broadcasts both on radio and television that we found in the Palestinian media well before the incidents and especially during the incidents were inflammatory to the point of violence which would have been a breaking of the Oslo accords.” Jimmy, what happened? How close to war did we get?

DeYoung: Let me say, first of all, it was a war. Seventy-eight people were killed—15 Israelis and 63 Palestinians were killed. The tanks were aimed at the people. They were up in the Galilee. These people were at war. People were getting killed. Now, it happened to be a mini-war, and praise the Lord for that. It could have broken wide open and the entire Middle East could have been at war.

But let me go back to the tunnel. Basically, the tunnel was a non-issue. I happened to have been in the tunnel in question the day all of this broke out. I had opportunity to go through the tunnel. You see, about two-thirds of this tunnel had been open since 1984. I went there when I was covering the elections in ‘84. I went through the tunnel before they had all the barriers set up and everything to go through the tunnel. And then in 1991, I did a television documentary from the tunnel. 1996 in September, when this tunnel was opened up the rest of the way—in other words, the last one-third of the tunnel was basically a tunnel that had been there for 2,200 years. It was built by the Hasmoneans. It was a water tunnel. They did not take one shovel worth of dirt out of that new section that was opened up. So they didn’t dig a tunnel. They didn’t open up a tunnel. They were just simply allowing people to go through that portion that had been there for 2,200 years. All they did was put an exit door at the end of the tunnel which actually went into the Arab quarter and was going to enhance the economy of the Arab quarter because now tourists were going to be going out and they figure something like 750,000 to a million tourists a year would be walking by the merchants in the Arab quarter.

The situation was that back in January under Shimon Peres when he was Prime Minister, the Israeli government made a deal with the Palestinians. The Palestinians wanted to expand their prayer space at Al Aqsa Mosque. Now, just imagine in your eye if you were looking straight ahead at an imaginary wall. That’s the Western Wall. Look up to your right. That would be the silver domed building. That’s the Al Aqsa Mosque. The gold-domed building, the Dome of the Rock, and the entrance to the tunnel to your left. The tunnel went the opposite direction from the Al Aqsa Mosque. They weren’t going near the Al Aqsa Mosque. They were not going near any Moslem archaeological remains at all. They had made an arrangement that you could, under Solomon’s…at Solomon’s stables basically, under Al Aqsa Mosque they could put a prayer center for the Moslem people because they needed more space for prayer. What was actually taking place was that they were simply opening up a tourist attraction for the Israeli people, for the Christian people, for the Moslem people. All were invited to come there.

I went through that day with Dan Bahat, who is the archaeologist in charge of the entire operation. I said, “Dan, are we endangering any building at all? Forget Moslem artifacts; forget Israeli archaeological remains. Are we endangering anything?” He said, “Absolutely not.” He said, “I respect the Moslem archaeology as well as I do the Israeli archaeology.” This was a non-issue.

Three weeks before, Yasser Arafat tried to call the Palestinian people to a big demonstration on the Temple Mount. He wanted the Temple Mount flooded with people. They had 15,000 people show up. That’s a drop in the bucket. I’ve been on the Western Wall reporting news from that spot when they had upwards of 200,000 people on the Temple Mount there worshipping in the Moslem worship service. So it didn’t work. It did not come together for him. He needed an event. When Netanyahu returned from a European trip at the time all this took place, he said, “Whatever I would have done, Yasser Arafat would have used that to launch what he did.” And, in fact, he came out of a meeting in Gaza meeting with his cabinet and he told them, “We will accelerate this thing. This is the issue we’ve been looking for.”

Ankerberg: Yes. Speak to this. One of the scariest things in doing the research for this program was to realize the police force that the Palestinian Arabs now have, the size of that, what Israel did in arming them, and what happened during this incident? Speak to all of that.

DeYoung: The Oslo Accords set up a police force for the Palestinian people. And to be exactly that; simply a police force with small arms on their side. That’s all they were supposed to do. They were allowed by the Oslo Accords to have 9,000 members in this police force. As I speak, there are over 50,000 people involved in the Palestinian police force which has become a military might. Those Israelis were killed by their own weapons and by that I mean, the Israeli government under Shimon Perez gave the weapons, the long rifles, to these Palestinian police. They turned on the people of Israel with the weapons that Israel had graciously given to them to police their own people.

Ankerberg: You know, Mubarak of Egypt said after this event, “If Arafat is not successful in negotiating with Israel, the Palestinians will not sit with folded arms. Violence may start, not only against the Israelis, but against those who support the Israelis.” Are we talking about terrorism coming our way?

DeYoung: We’re talking about terrorism worldwide. That’s what they have guaranteed. You see, part of the Palestinian operation would be Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah, three of the most notorious terrorist organizations in the world; Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, and then in Israel proper you have Islamic Jihad and Hamas. They are a part of the PLO, Palestinian Liberation Organization. That’s a conglomerate of Palestinian terrorist organizations of the past, although Yasser Arafat, who happens to be the chairman of the PLO, has supposedly become a statesman instead of the greatest world’s best-known terrorist.

Anyway, as they have moved to a position where they are now endeavoring to take back to Jerusalem to establish a state in the land of Israel with Jerusalem as its capital and to annihilate the Jewish people, it is, in my opinion, a fulfillment of two very interesting prophecies. The Book of Ezekiel Chapter 35, the Book of Obadiah talks about in the last days there will be a people that will rise up with the desire of taking the land of Israel. Ezekiel 36:5 says, when that happens, these people with despiteful minds and joyful hearts will go in to try to take the land that God gave the Jewish people, take it away from them, and get rid of a Jewish presence in the Middle East. Now, whether you want to say that’s the Palestinians or not, whoever that prophecy is talking about have to arise in the last day and try to destroy the Jewish nation in the land of Israel.

Ankerberg: Rennie, why do these things prove…where are these things going, first of all, and why do they prove that the God of the Bible does exist and that we’re going the direction that He predicts in prophecy?

Showers: Let me point this out. You know, in the Prophet Isaiah God calls Israel, “Israel my glory.” And the word “glory” refers to what is impressive or influential. And the way God reveals His glory through Israel is the way He deals with that nation historically. And the whole point is, through God’s historic dealings with Israel, He’s going to keep drawing attention to that nation and the way He deals with that nation in order to impress the world with His greatness and who He is and that He has a plan and a purpose and that He’s in control of things.

In Deuteronomy 28 in the first fourteen verses God told Israel that whenever they would obey Him and His Word, He would bless them more than any other nation; and He told them why He would do that—so that all the other nations would recognize that they’re called by the name of the Lord. Then beginning in verse 15 going to the end of Deuteronomy 28 He told Israel, if they didn’t obey Him and listen to His Word, that He would curse them more than any other nation on the face of the earth and He told them why He would do that. He said, “You’ll be a byword; you’ll be a proverb.” What He’s saying there is, I’m using the nation of Israel in my historic dealings with it as a object lesson to impress the world with two truths about Myself: number one, I’m the kind of God who will bless those people who listen to and obey my Word; number two, I’m also the kind of God who will curse and frustrate those people who will not listen to and obey My Word.

And it’s no accident that God placed that tiny nation in the most strategic geographic location on the face of the earth in ancient times and has brought it back there again. He’s simply setting the stage for one of the greatest displays of His glory through that nation. And so God in His sovereignty allows these problems to stir up and keep drawing the attention of the world back to Israel again. I know it’s almost every week it’s in the news for one reason or another because of all the turmoil going on there. This is all part of God’s plan and purpose. He’s using that nation to impress the world with certain things about Himself.

Ankerberg: Jimmy, with 20 seconds, to the person that doesn’t know that God, how can he get to know that God?

DeYoung: It’s simple as “A,B,C.” A – you admit you’re a sinner before a pure, perfect, holy God. Not before me or you or Rennie but before a pure, perfect, holy God. B – you believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Believe He came, lived, died and resurrected from the dead and believe He will save you. And C – call upon Him. Romans 10:13: “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Ankerberg: Alright, next week I hope that you’ll join us because we’re going to talk about nuclear weapons in the Middle East. We almost went to war a few days ago. What would happen if we did go to war and we’re going to talk about the nuclear options that now exist in the Middle East and what that would mean to all of us living on planet earth right now. And we’re also going to tie that to, “Will one of the points that causes the world to go to war be the dividing of the city of Jerusalem?” I hope that you’ll join us next week. 

Jerusalem – The Cup of Trembling

Ankerberg: Welcome to our program. We’re glad that you’ve joined us. We’re talking about “Current World Events and Biblical Prophecy,” a fascinating topic. The God of the Bible actually makes statements that we can look at in past history to see if He accomplished that; and then He says there are going to be events in the future. Some of us may be a part of those events as well. What we’re doing is, we’re going to be looking at some of those events, both past and in the present. We’re talking about Jerusalem, one of the hottest places in the world in terms of politics. And Dr. Jimmy DeYoung, an international journalist, is presently living and reporting from Jerusalem and he’s part of our program tonight. And Dr. Renald Showers, a professor, who has served on the faculties of Lancaster Bible College, Moody Bible Institute and Philadelphia College of the Bible. Guys, we’re glad that you’re here tonight. And, you know, we are looking at Jerusalem.

The Bible says that God is going to make Jerusalem a cup of trembling to all the surrounding peoples. “It will happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away”—wanting to get rid of it—”will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.” Well, Israel, God said, someday would become a nation, come back into the land. People would be gathered from all over the earth. That’s happened even in our lifetimes, some of us. In the wars they have now recaptured their holy places right on the Temple Mount, Jerusalem itself; but the very point of that city being in existence and in the nation of Israel’s hands is a sticking point.

Let me just read a few statements and, Jimmy, I’d like you to go further with us. A lady that was dating Peter Jennings at ABC News. She’s the official member of the Palestinian team. I think we’ve all seen her on television in some of the reports, Hanan Ashrawi. She’s been negotiating with Israel on behalf of the PLO. Very educated, very sophisticated lady. This is the statement she made about the city of Jerusalem and how important it is to the Palestinian Arabs. She said, “Jerusalem is an indivisible part of the occupied territories. It’s a fundamental issue. It is the heart of occupied Palestine. It is the heart of the Arab world. It is the heart of the Islamic world, and no person, no group or Palestinian leadership can relinquish it. We see Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian State and reject any attempts at defining its future in advance. Arab Jerusalem remains the Jerusalem of the Arabs, the Jerusalem of Palestine. It’s the essence and the beating heart of Palestine.”

The Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem said this: “I am one of the holy warriors for Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a part of our religion. It is a part of the religion of every Muslim. We consider ourselves holy warriors for this city and we will not abandon it.” On the other side, before Rabin died, at the Oslo Accord, even though he put it on the table as a point to be negotiated the city of Jerusalem in the future, in doing so, he issued this statement: “Jerusalem is the ancient and eternal capital of the Jewish people,” and the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs right now has on the Internet this statement: “An undivided Jerusalem under Israeli sovereignty with religious freedom for all is and remains a fundamental Israeli position.” It won’t be changed.

Well, now, friends and neighbors, we’ve got two people that say we’re agreed we’re going to negotiate it. Both won’t let it go. What’s going to happen, Jimmy?

DeYoung: It’s going to be an unbelievable conflict. The Word of God talks about it. Rennie Showers shared with us last week on the program that indeed there is going to be a gathering of the nations of the world around the city of Jerusalem, Zechariah 14:2,1, and that’s going to be an unbelievable time. Let me make a statement, though, as to the validity of both the statements that you’ve just read. Number one, I was at the celebration when they kicked off the three thousandth anniversary of the city of Jerusalem being named not only the political capital but the spiritual capital of the Jewish people. And that was in October 1995. Yitzhak Rabin made the statement you just quoted that Jerusalem is the eternal capital. And basically what he was doing was quoting David Ben Gurion who said that as well when the nation was established in 1948. But there is biblical undergirding for that statement. You go back to the Book of 2 Samuel Chapter 5, you’ll see that King David moving from Hebron came to Jerusalem, was established as the king of all the Jewish people, and he needed at that point in time a capital city. He chose the Jebuzite stronghold, the city of Jerusalem, and he established it. That’s over 3,000 years ago that happened.

On the other side of the coin, we hear the Palestinian leadership saying Jerusalem is going to be their capital for the Palestinian State and they say that it is very important. The Mufti said, “It is very important as far as our religiosity is concerned.” It’s the third most important city or most sacred city as far as the Moslems are concerned. Mecca, Medina and then Jerusalem.

But let me tell you this, the Koran, the holy book for the Moslem people, never, ever mentions the city of Jerusalem. Never, ever says a word about Mohammed coming to the city of Jerusalem. And never, ever in the history of the city of Jerusalem was it ever a capital of the Moslem world in any way, shape or form. Within the last 150 years, political decisions have moved these people to saying this is an important city as far as our religion and as far as our existence is concerned.

The end result is going to be an unbelievable war over who has the sovereignty of the city of Jerusalem. I have read all of the book. I know the Book of Psalms, Chapter 132, God says, “I have chosen Jerusalem. It will be my resting place. I will abide there forever with my people.” I think God has the last word.

Ankerberg: Rennie, why is Jerusalem so important to the nation of Israel?

Showers: Well, I think, for one thing, because of the historic background that Jimmy has just related to us. But I think for the sheer symbolism of it. Historically, that’s been the capital, this city, and that’s where the temples were located: Solomon’s Temple, the second temple which Herod enlarged and aggrandized and all the rest. So it’s been not only the political capital historically for the people of Israel, but it’s also the spiritual capital as well for them.

And the prophetic Scriptures indicate that in the future Millennium the city of Jerusalem once again will be the capital city of not only the nation of Israel, but of the entire world. And you have Isaiah, you have Micah, other prophets indicating that during the Millennium that will be the spiritual and the political capital of the world. That’s where the Messiah will be ruling as King over the whole earth. And all the nations of the world during the Millennium will come up there to worship the Lord and to receive His law, His instruction on how they are to live. Zechariah Chapter 8 says during that time, ten Gentiles will grab hold of one Jew and say, “Take us with you up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord.”

But, John, there’s a third element that enters into this not only what the Jews say about the city and what the Muslims say about the city, but what the world is now beginning to say. There’s a movement by our government as well as the United Nations and other nations to try to totally internationalize the city of Jerusalem and not let one nation control it but the world must dictate to it. You know, ever since the end of World War II up until the last couple of years the Vatican refused to recognize Israel officially as an independent government. But when the Vatican heard that there’s a movement among the nations to take Jerusalem away from the control of Israel and internationalize it, very quickly the Vatican recognized Israel as a nation state so that they could have, in essence, an embassy there because they said, if the world is going to determine what’s done with this city, we want a voice in it. And you better believe they want a voice, because they’ve got millions of dollars worth of property in that city. And so there’s a third major factor here where the world now is getting interested. We want to control that city. And so you’ve got about three different elements here that are going to be in conflict with each other.

DeYoung: John, in December of 1995 the United Nations had a resolution come to the floor to vote on and the basic element of the resolution was that Israel has absolutely no jurisdiction over the city of Jerusalem. There was only one nation that voted against that resolution, and, of course, that was Israel. Even the United States of America abstained in light of the fact that the U.S. House of Representatives, the United States Senate had voted that the embassy of the nation of the United States would be moved from Tel Aviv into Jerusalem by law by the year 1999. But it’s a controversy. And when you’re talking about the Third World, you’ve got to realize, I mean, within one week we had the President of France, we had the Prime Minister of Russia, we had the head of the European Union all come to Jerusalem and say why they felt they must have a say in the final status on the city of Jerusalem.

Ankerberg: We’re going to take a break and when we come back, I want to go one step further, that if we did go to war over that or over any of the other sticking points, I have a Pulitzer Prize winning author who has written The Samson Option (nuclear war in the Middle East). And it talks about Israel’s capability and we’re going to talk about that and what it means to all of us when we come back from our break. Stick with us.

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Ankerberg: Alright we’re back. We’re glad that you’ve joined us. We’re talking about “Current World Events and Biblical Prophecy” with Dr. Jimmy DeYoung, an international journalist who is living and reporting from Jerusalem, Israel, and Dr. Renald Showers, a professor in biblical prophecy.

Guys, I was shocked when I read this book in preparation for this shoot called The Samson Option: Israel’s Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy. This guy is not a novice. He’s a Pulitzer Prize winner who first wrote about the My Lai massacre in South Vietnam. He has written for the New York Times in Washington. He has written a book about Henry Kissinger. He has won 12 major journalistic prizes, including the 1970 Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting.

What is this book about? This book talks about the development of nuclear weapons by Israel. They call it “The Samson Option.” Well, who was Samson? Samson was one of the leaders in Israel who sinned but he had his eyes gouged out and finally God gave him his strength back; but the fact was, he went out by pulling down the pillars of the temple and he died with his enemies.

This man says, “Israel is determined that no future enemy will be able to carry out another Holocaust.” The whole book documents this. Just as Samson brought down the temple and killed himself along with his enemies, so would Israel destroy those who sought its destruction. The message of the “Samson Option” is the stark reality that the next Middle East war might very well be nuclear.

In this book, he goes back and talks about how every one of our American Presidents, starting with Eisenhower, Eisenhower thought Israel had nuclear capabilities or was building them but couldn’t prove it. Let it slide. Kennedy knew. Lyndon Johnson sold them F-4s knowing that they wouldn’t sign the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty. And he said, “Give them anything they want.” They got nuclear weapons. America kind of shut its eyes to that and actually some of our Presidents thought it was a good thing for parity in the Middle East.

But during, what I didn’t recognize, according to Hersh here, is that during the 1973 Yom Kippur War which Israel won, the first three days of that war, Syria had invaded from up on the Golan Heights and had broken through. I think they had just 12 or 14 hundred tanks that broke through, came all the way up to Galilee. Egypt and Sadat broke through there. They were coming from two directions and Israel was losing every time. Moshe Dayan went before the press and said basically, “I think it’s all over. We can’t survive.” And they had Golda Meir’s kitchen cabinet that met all through the night and they decided to arm what they called “The Samson Option.” If they failed, they were going down with their nuclear weapons. They allowed the satellites, according to Hersh, of America and Russia to see the silos where the nuclear weapons were at so they could tell the Arab world. Russia actually told Egypt, “They’ve got three nuclear bombs. Pull back.”

Now, when I read this, I was thinking, you know, what we just talked about in terms of the Temple Mount, when we talk about the fact that Jerusalem is a divided city or they want it to be an international city or the Arabs want it to be their capital and Israel says, “No.” We’ve got all of these points that could cause a conflict in the Arab world with Israel that could involve all of us that are living on planet earth right now.

And let me give you a quote that just came out in the last 30 days. When that incident happened on the Temple Mount, the 22-nation Arab League meeting in Cairo made this statement October 7 this year, okay? They accused Israel of plotting the destruction of Islamic holy places and they praised, they hailed the Palestinians for confronting Israel’s repression. They said, “Go to it.” If we’re living under those kinds of circumstances, Jimmy, what have you heard about nuclear capability? How much of a powder keg are we sitting on as we even talk right now.

DeYoung: We’re sitting on a powder keg, that’s for sure. As to what knowledge I have of the reality that Israel has nuclear capability, I cannot confirm it nor can I deny it. We happen to believe, the journalistic corps, by the way, the journalistic corps in Jerusalem is the second most populated in the world. Washington D.C. has more journalists but I believe the journalists of this world know something’s about to happen in Jerusalem, so they’ve gathered there. But we’ve talked together about the fact that Israel does have a nuclear capability. They will not make a statement about it. I don’t know how Mr. Hersh is able to get his information. Should he have gotten that from someone who was a part of the Israeli government, I would imagine they would be facing the death penalty, whatever it is.

Ankerberg: The interesting thing I read in here is that he got it from our government documents; he got it from the Egyptian government documents; he got it from the Russian documents. It’s all in there, and again, this guy is not just a novice; he’s a Pulitzer Prize winner that really got my attention.

DeYoung: I know it. Can’t question his credentials. That’s exactly right. I do know this, though, that continually Foreign Minister Mussa of Egypt is putting pressure on Israel to sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. They’re endeavoring to do that and the Israeli government, both under the Labor government, which was Shimon Peres, and now under the Likud government which is Benjamin Netanyahu, they are refusing ever to sign that Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. So as to whether they have it, I can’t confirm it or deny it. I do believe they would have it and I guess you can’t argue with all the facts.

Ankerberg: Rennie, are there verses in the Bible that would suggest we’re heading for a nuclear holocaust in the future?

Showers: I don’t see it, John, personally. Certainly not to destroy Jerusalem or the nation of Israel or most of the world because the Scriptures make it very clear that city is going to be there right through the end of the Tribulation and it’s going to be there when Christ comes out of Heaven in His glorious Second Coming, and the nation is going to be there as well and other nations are gathered against them. I do think there might be a side prophetic issue here. You know, the Bible does make it very clear Israel is going to have a new temple during the future Tribulation period. I take it there in Jerusalem. And I take it at the Temple Mount. And the question is, how are they going to get permission to put up a temple there? And it may be—and this is purely conjecture on my part. I can’t give chapter and verse from the Bible. That if the world wants to internationalize that in order to try to solve the dilemma between the Muslims and Israel, that perhaps Israel will be willing to negotiate and allow the world to internationalize that city if the world in turn will give Israel permission to build their new temple there in Jerusalem.

Ankerberg: How about these verses here, Rennie, because you know your Old Testament. “I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth; blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness, the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” Or Jesus’ statement, “The day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulphur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.” Or how about this one from Isaiah 24: “Therefore a curse consumes the earth. Its people must bear their guilt. Therefore, earth’s inhabitants are burned up and very few are left.” Now, the reason I bring it up, Revelation, which you have written on so well, you told me in the book, the first major war, one-fourth of the world’s population will be destroyed. Right after that, Revelation 9, the power coming out of the East of the Euphrates, one-third more dies. That means 50 percent, more than 50% of the earth is dead either in a few months or in a few years. That’s more than 2.7 billion people. How do they die, Rennie?

Showers: Well, in the first reference you give there, that’s in the fourth seal judgment and God indicates there that they will be destroyed through four means. One is the sword, famine, pestilence and wild beasts. As far as with Revelation 9, with the sixth trumpet judgment, where one third are destroyed, I’m convinced those are not human forces there in Revelation 9. Many have said this is an army of 200 million men from Asia, but the problem is, you don’t have the kings of the East coming to Israel and the Middle East there until the sixth bowl judgment which is one trumpet and six bowls after the 200 million there in Revelation 9.

In addition, Revelation 9, the 200 million, it’s not the riders on the back of the horses that are causing the destruction, it’s the unusual horses themselves that are causing destruction. Horses that have the heads of lions and a serpent’s tail with a serpent’s head and they’re destroying people through three means: one is fire, one is smoke, and one is brimstone. But that’s coming out of the mouths of these horses. And I’m convinced these are demonic forces involved there. Angels have the ability to take any shape or form that they have to in order to carry out an assignment or a task.

Ankerberg: Yeah. Let me just roll on here, Jimmy. Okay, with Netanyahu this month, a guy asked him a question and he said, “I just recently read an intelligence newsletter concerning a possible nuclear, chemical and biological attack against Israel before the year 2002. What would Israel do to defend herself when the enemy is within her borders as we speak?” Netanyahu’s answer: “What Israel would do if these measures do not succeed is something that is best left undiscussed even in the era of the Internet.” What do you think Israel would do?

DeYoung: Well, I happen to say what the Word of God lays forth and that’s going to take place. We can suppose according to world events something’s going to happen, and a lot of times I think we get in trouble prophetically by looking only at world events and what we believe would be the logical scenario of things to happen. God has interceded in the past for Israel. He will intercede in the future as He is now interceding for them. And I think we’re going to have to look at God’s Word and determine what God’s Word is talking about, exegete that Scripture dealing with these events.

Now, I happen to believe that probably the nuclear capability of Israel would act as a deterrent. But I think that what’s going to happen, the Arab world, the enemies of Israel, are going to say, “We don’t care about that nuclear capability,” and they’re going to be intoxicated with power just like we talked about—the “cup of trembling” that Jerusalem will be. “We’re not concerned about that.” And in fact, when they come against Israel, the Bible says Antichrist, the false prophet, and Satan, the satanic trinity, will use signs, wonders and miracles to gather the people together. That’s a super power, a demonic super power. By the way, we have proliferation of signs, wonders and miracles today, and those things will draw these enemies of Israel into the land then I believe God will unfold His judgment out of the heavenlies which I think that’s what the Book of Revelation teaches.

Ankerberg: Rennie, for someone that doesn’t know the God of the Bible but would like to put their faith in the God of the Bible’s Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, how would you recommend they do that?

Showers: Well, they have to acknowledge the fact that they’ve sinned against God like all of us have and that condemns them before a Holy God. They have to admit the fact that there are no personal works that they can do to cancel out their sins or make themselves right with God. And therefore, they desperately need a Savior and they have to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who became a man so He could die as their substitute, pay the penalty for their sins on the cross of Calvary and that He was buried, that He rose bodily from the dead three days later, and believing that, put their trust totally in Jesus Christ and Him alone to save them from their sins.

Ankerberg: Next week we’re going to talk about Bethlehem because next week is Christmas week and we’re going to find out what has changed in the city of Bethlehem over the years and what is it like right now. Hope you’ll join us next week. 

Preparing for the Temple

Ankerberg: Welcome. We’re talking about “Current World Events and Biblical Prophecy” and we have three guests: Dr. Jimmy DeYoung, an international journalist presently living and reporting from Jerusalem, Israel; Dr. Elwood McQuaid, the executive director of “The Friends of Israel,” who is an expert on the issues dividing Islam, Israel and the Western World. And Elwood’s had a tough time tonight coming in; had a little accident and slipped down the stairs and so the stitches right above his eye there. He’s been at the hospital getting those stitched up in the last two programs or so. And we’re glad that you finally made it here and it’s been a rugged evening. Alright, and Dr. Renald Showers is our third guest, a professor who has served on the faculties of Lancaster Bible College, Moody Bible Institute and Philadelphia College of the Bible. Guys, we’re glad that you’re here.

We’re approaching or right on the night of Christmas Eve and all over the world people are focusing on the birthplace of Jesus Christ, Bethlehem, and you talk about one hot-spot politically. Jimmy, you live in Jerusalem. You’ve been traveling down to Bethlehem. Elwood, you have as well. I’ve been there myself, and boy, things have changed as we are approaching all of the services that will take place in the Church of the Nativity and the place where Jesus was born, tell us, what’s been happening in Bethlehem? Jimmy, start us off.

DeYoung: Well, before I say that, you know, we have a unique place that we live in Jerusalem. We’re right on the edge of Jerusalem adjacent to Bethlehem. I can look out my living room window, see Bethlehem; out my bedroom window, see the Mount of Olives. A neat place to live. And, indeed, my wife and I would go over to Bethlehem and purchase fruit and we needed some fruit because they have some delicious fruit from the valley of Jericho area. Bethlehem has become an unbelievable hot spot.

Christmas of 1995, Yasser Arafat came to Bethlehem because they had just given—the Israeli government—had just given the responsibility of administering and managing Bethlehem back to the Palestinian people. At the southern border of Jerusalem there is Bethlehem. Yasser Arafat stood there on Christmas Eve 1995, a big banner behind him in Arabic that said: “Jesus was the first Palestinian.” And he made a statement at that meeting, “We’re here in Bethlehem this year to celebrate Christmas; next year in Jerusalem.” Well, they have, of course, an unbelievable gathering on Christmas Eve in Bethlehem. Choirs from all over the world. There’s a telecast goes worldwide to that unique little spot of Bethlehem. And I happened to have an opportunity to have a meeting with Mayor Frige who was the Mayor of Bethlehem and he said that he happens to be a christian Arab. Now, when I say christian Arab I mean little c christian, not big C Christian. If he’s not a Moslem or a Jew, he would be a christian. Bethlehem used to be as we say a christian Arab city. Eighty-five percent Christian in population; 15 percent Moslem. The mayor told me in our last meeting together, that has completely reversed. It’s now 85 percent Moslem; 15 percent christian. And indeed, I have talked to the Christian community in Bethlehem who say that they are either being run out of town or persecuted as they stay there. Merchants in the area…in fact, scribbled on the wall in Bethlehem not long ago was the sign, “We’re taking care of the Saturday people, the Jewish people. Next will be the Sunday people, the Christians.”

Ankerberg: Let’s talk about this thing. Let’s jump from Bethlehem to what you said about Jerusalem. Okay? The fact is, it’s a contentious point between Palestinian Arabs and the Jewish people who’s going to own and control that city. We could go to war on that one. But there’s another contentious point that we haven’t brought up and that is the Temple Mount itself. Alright? Let’s start with Scripture, first of all. Why are we talking about it in “Current World Events and Biblical Prophecy”? Well, we think this is going to be a big spot coming up in the future. What’s on the Temple Mount. 2 Thessalonians 2, Rennie, says, “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way for that day”—that’s the Day of the Lord—”will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction”—the one called the Antichrist. Now, what it says about him: “He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped so that he sets himself up in God’s temple”—God’s temple has got to be there for him to do that—”proclaiming himself to be God.” Now, the fact is, if there’s going to be a Jewish temple, it’s got to be on the Temple Mount. The fact is, what happens to the Dome of the Rock, that’ll be a little sticking point right there. How does this come about? What’s going to happen?

Showers: Well, let me point out, that’s only one of about three passages that make it very clear there will be a temple there for the Tribulation. That one, and 2 Thessalonians 2. Daniel 9:27, which is dealing with the seven-year Tribulation period, indicates that right in the middle of that seven-year period the Antichrist will put a stop to sacrifices and offerings that the Jews will have reinstituted, and certainly they won’t have sacrifices and offerings without a temple. And then Jesus, in Matthew 24:15, speaking to Jews who will be living in Israel in the future Tribulation said this, “When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in your holy place”—which, again, is a reference to the temple—”those of you who are in Judah flee to the mountains because then will be such great tribulation such as has never been in the past nor ever will be again.”

Now, even Jewish scholars disagree as to exactly where on the Temple Mount the two previous temples of Israel stood. There are some who believe that it stood where the Dome of the Rock, a Muslim building, is now standing. Other Jewish archaeologists say, “No, that the first two temples were north of that on a large open space here in the Temple Mount and that therefore Israel could build a new temple in that open space without touching either one of the Muslim buildings on top of that Temple Mount.” We don’t know how it will come about that Israel will be able to build a temple there. All we know is the Scriptures make it very clear they will have a new temple for the future Tribulation.

Right now there’s an organization in Jerusalem called the Temple Institute and they have duplicated the instruments of worship that were in the previous temples, the high priests’ garment. They have made the silver trumpets that were played in the worship services in the temple. They set up a priestly training school where they take Jewish men whom they are convinced are descendants of the priestly tribe and are training them for the priesthood.

There’s a Jewish couple who used to live in the Atlanta area who has moved permanently to Jerusalem. Through extensive research they’ve rediscovered the kind of harps that were played in the worship services in the temple and they’re reproducing those. In Paris, France right now there’s an elderly Jewish woman, a professional musician, who through extensive research has rediscovered the exact kind of music that was played and sung in the temple worship services of Solomon’s Temple and Herod’s Temple. She’s already set the Song of Solomon and the Book of Ecclesiastes to that music. She’s presently setting all 150 of the Psalms to that music as well. So that there are serious preparations for a new temple and God says it’s going to be there. How, we don’t know yet.

DeYoung: You know, we’re at Christmas season. If you look in the New Testament, Matthew 1 and 2; Luke 1 and 2, there are 168 verses. And that tells the Christmas Story. But in the Book of Ezekiel, Chapters 40 to 46 there are 202 verses that give absolute minute detail about a coming temple that’s going to stand in the city of Jerusalem. Allocation of space tells us we need to know what’s going on as it relates to the coming temple that will stand on the Temple Mount in the city of Jerusalem.

Ankerberg: Elwood, if we heard an announcement that the Jewish people were going to start to rebuild their temple tomorrow, what would that mean in terms of prophecy?

Dr. Elwood McQuaid: Well, in the first place let me just tack on to what’s already been said. I stood just days ago in a room overlooking the Temple Mount and the Western Wall. And on the door going into that room was the word “Sanhedrin.” And when you walk through that door, you see semi-circular tables; 70 chairs; a seat for the high priest. And you get a very acute feeling, a sense of…almost a sense of urgency that’s welling up in the hearts of the Jewish people. These people who are preparing the harps, preparing the vessels for the temple, identifying the priests, studying sacrificial worship, these people are written off sometimes as the “kook fringe” types of people. They are not that. They are intelligent; they’re serious; they’re dedicated and they are people who really believe that once they can sacrifice animal blood once again, the void in their hearts is going to be filled and, of course, we weep for them because we know no animal blood will meet the void that only the One who was born in Bethlehem, the Lord Jesus, the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the world, can meet. But for world Jewry, I can tell you, John, that if the Jewish people began to build a temple, or if they should find an artifact. You know, the search is on for the Ark of the Covenant. If they could find an artifact, if the Pope would bring with his visit, as Israel has requested him to do, the Menorah from the holy place, it would be such a revolutionary experience for the Jews they would demand a house for it and we’d see things start to happen.

Ankerberg: We’ve got to take a break and we’ll come back to those two thoughts. And what I want to ask you about is that I remember that during or just in the prelude, I think, to the Gulf War, the reason—a lot of our American people don’t recognize this—why Saddam Hussein rained down the SCUDs on Israel had to do with some fellows trying to lay the foundation stone and that was your first entrance into Israel. You got there just in time to have those SCUDs come down on you and to live with that for a while. I want you to tell us about that and what the laying of that foundation stone, why it caused almost a worldwide war and why Saddam Hussein started shooting the SCUDs at them and how it relates to biblical prophecy. We’re going to do all that when we come right back.

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Ankerberg: Alright we’re back and we’re talking about “Current World Events and Biblical Prophecy.” The events that are staring us right in the face, some of them that we’ve lived through we don’t recognize the significance of some of these events. One of them that was very important in Israel but was not really realized across the world was when a group of orthodox Jews tried to go up and lay the first foundation rock, the big one, up there on the Temple Mount and tell us what happened.

DeYoung: Gershon Salomon is the leader of a group called The Temple Mount Faithful, and their whole thrust, their whole goal is to be able to take that rock which was cut out of the desert, which was cut according to Jewish law, without metal on the stone. They have the cornerstone; they wanted to take it up on the Temple Mount. As they endeavored to do that, I happened to be there with a television camera. I talked with Gershon that day. All the rest of the journalists of the world were standing and looking and I just jumped up and started saying, “What are you doing?” “We’re taking the cornerstone up. We want to put it on the Temple Mount.”

You know, Gershon Salomon had a unique experience. On June 8, 1967, the day after the Jewish people had captured the Temple Mount, he went up on the Temple Mount; there was met by the official Jordanian guide and the Jordanian guide said, “I guess you’re here to put the temple up.” And he said, “Let me just show you the location according to our tradition where the temple would stand.” He said, “Because the Koran says that one day the Jew will come back and put his temple here.” Gershon had the experience and that’s what’s motivated him over these years. As he endeavored to take it up that day back in the early 90s.

Ankerberg: Why did Saddam Hussein get so mad?

DeYoung: Well, a whole Arab world got mad. And, in fact, they demonstrated on the Temple Mount. When I was doing a documentary about this whole situation, I was interviewing the official Palestinian guide on the Temple Mount. I said, “What if they come up here to try to put the temple? What are you going to do?” He said, “We’ll put one million Arabs on the Temple Mount to stop them from ever taking this spot away from us.” They want to go up there. I, in the first part of the program, as saying something or trying to follow up what all of my friends here took my information and gave to you, and I just wanted to tell you the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey would say. Two points. Number one, during the Gulf Crisis, when the SCUDs would be coming in and we were there for all 39 SCUD attacks, putting our gas masks on every time. But the orthodox Jews never put their gas masks on. The ones that live in the old city of Jerusalem, they ran literally to the Western Wall; they started praying for one of those SCUDs to hit the Dome of the Rock. Do you know what SCUD stood for? SCUD? “Sure could use direction.” Saddam Hussein didn’t know where they were going. He was hoping they’d take out one of those rocks.

Two men that I interviewed, one of them Slomo Goren, he was the chief rabbi at the time when they took back the old city, the Temple Mount area. He’s the first rabbi to blow a shofar and offer a prayer at the Western Wall and then the man who was responsible for all the holy sites, the Jewish holy sites in Israel, Yehuda Getz, both of these very distinguished rabbis went underneath the Temple Mount and both of them told me in different times, they came within 25 feet of getting the Ark of the Covenant. One of them related to me he had seen the Ark of the Covenant.

One final thought I wanted to share. You’re talking about the couple that moved from the United States to Israel making the harps. Do you know what? After the Jerusalem Post reporter reported that they were making these harps, she came back and said, “It’s the first time in 2,000 years a harp has been made in Israel.” Three days later a rabbi showed up. He said, “Do you have a ten-string harp here?” “Yes, we do.” “May I see it?” “Certainly you may.” “May I hold it?” And he held it and he started to cry. And Shoshanna Harrari, the wife of Micah who made the first harp, said, “What’s the matter, Rabbi?” He said, “The Talmud,” extrabiblical Jewish writing, “The Talmud says that when the ten-string harp shows up in Jerusalem, that’s the time for the coming of the Messiah.” That’s where it is today.

McQuaid: Let me finish the rest of the story….

DeYoung: What did I tell you I forgot….

Ankerberg: Elwood, would you help us out? If the Jewish rabbis are saying they’ve seen it; they can get to it, yet they haven’t. If they did go in and they brought it out, Scripture tells us that you can’t put that into a museum. Where do you have to put it? You’ve got to put it in a temple, don’t you?

McQuaid: I asked Benjamin Mazar, who was the archaeologist who worked on the Temple Mount for many years, that very question. I said, “For example, say you should dig into an artifact as significant as the Ark of the Covenant. What would you do with it?” And he thought for a long time and asked me why I was asking that question. I told him. But then he said, “Well, to say the least, it would be the greatest day in the history of the state of Israel, and the first question would be: Where are we going to put it? And the obvious answer was, We’ll have to build a house for it. And there’s only one place to build that house.

Ankerberg: Guys, answer this question. Do you think the temple is going to be rebuilt in our lifetime?

DeYoung: I think we’ll be alive eternally because the Rapture will take place before the temple starts to be built.

Ankerberg: What is that thing called the Rapture? And what is this thing called the Tribulation for people that don’t know, Rennie?

Showers: Well, the Rapture is an event where the Lord Jesus will come from Heaven to the air above the earth and He will snatch up all the born-again Christians from the face of the earth to meet Him in the air and then return with them to live in the mansions in the Father’s house that He’s preparing for them now. And after the Rapture, planet earth will enter into a very unique seven-year period of time which is characterized by Tribulation, the second half of which Jesus said will be such great tribulation “such as never has been in the past, or ever will be again.” And except God had determined to cut those days off at a certain time, all flesh would perish from planet earth. The worst time in world history.

Ankerberg: Yeah. In that Tribulation time period, what does the temple have to do with that?

Showers: Well, the Scriptures, again, make it very clear that during the first half of that Tribulation Israel will be worshipping at that temple; they will be offering animal sacrifices. But according to Daniel 9:27 in the very middle of that seven-year Tribulation period Antichrist, the head of the revived Roman Empire from Western Europe, will be in Jerusalem. He will take control of that temple; he will stop the Jewish sacrifices, and will boldly and brazenly claim that he is God and require all of his subjects to worship him as God. And those who refuse to do so he’ll try to put to death.

Ankerberg: And isn’t it right, just like right now, if we know that Christmas is coming in a couple of days; we know that we’re already past Thanksgiving. And if we were to see the preparations and the building of a temple that the Bible says the Antichrist is going to go in and that’s the Tribulation and we believe that the coming of Christ and the Rapture is before that, what does that mean? Could Christ come at any moment right now?

Showers: Yes. In fact, the Scriptures…in fact, in New Testament times the coming of Christ was imminent. And that means it’s always hanging overhead; it could come at any moment. Many things may happen before it happens, but biblically nothing must happen before the Lord comes. And therefore we should be ready moment by moment by moment to meet the Lord Jesus.

DeYoung: John, you know the interesting thing about this temple, it could only take a six-month period to build the temple. Preparations to build the temple. You need 28,000 priests to operate the temple when it’s in full operation. Those men have to be trained. You need their garments. You need the implements that the men have talked about. Four thousand harps have to be there for the Levite harp orchestra to play. That all has to be in place prior to the starting of the building—that can be done in six months after the Rapture. If you have everything else, all the other preparations done, you can put the temple up in just a couple of days.

Ankerberg: Elwood?

McQuaid: Talking about what we can see today that is emblematic of this great struggle that’s going on and the focal point is that Temple Mount and it is a Satan-God struggle and the strategies are becoming so clear today that we can see them, we can recognize them, and many times we make the mistake of trying to identify the wrong instigators. But, going back to Bethlehem, the place of the birth of our Lord Jesus, Yasser Arafat stood on a platform atop the Church of the Nativity, he gave the victory sign when 600,000 Islamic radicals were standing in that square saying, “In spirit and in blood we will redeem Palestine.” Now, that sets the standard for the tension and the issue. The same thing goes to the Temple Mount when the Antichrist will one day stand there. What was the issue? Herod tried to kill the Lord Jesus in His infancy in Bethlehem. The Antichrist is trying to usurp divine authority and dethrone Christ in that Tribulation temple. So we see the battle lines being drawn and even as we sit here tonight, that conflict is at issue.

Ankerberg: Rennie, Scripture said, “But thou, Bethlehem Ephrata, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from old,” actually from eternity. The fact is, tonight, we’re getting close to Christmas or we’re right on Christmas Eve, and there’s a lot of people that are celebrating the birth of Jesus and they’ve never met Him personally. How can they actually know Him and experience His great power, this One that is coming again to earth? How can they know Him tonight?

Showers: By recognizing they’ve sinned against a holy God. There are no works they can do personally to make themselves right with God whom they have offended through their sin, and that’s why God sent His Son from eternity past into the world to become a human being born in the town of Bethlehem on that first Christmas night, so that when He would grow up as an adult, Jesus would die as a substitute for the sins of human beings. He would die on the cross; He would be buried in a grave; He would be resurrected bodily from that grave three days later. In other words, He does all the work necessary for us to be saved as sinful human beings. Now what we must do is put our trust in Him and Him alone to be our Savior, and that will put us into a right personal relationship with the holy God of the universe.

Ankerberg: That’s right. Next week I hope that you’ll join us because we’re going to look at what the Bible has to say about the area, the geographical area where the Soviet Union, Russia, is at. What would happen in Russia if Boris Yeltsin was to die? Today on the news wires they’re trying to impeach him. If he was to go, what would happen in Russia? What would that mean to events in the Middle East, to Israel? Is this shaping up as to what God says in the Bible? I hope that you’ll join us next week. 

Where Does Russia Fit in Biblical Prophecy?

Ankerberg: We’re glad that you’ve joined us. We’re talking about “Current World Events and Biblical Prophecy.” We have three distinguished guests: Dr. Jimmy DeYoung, an international journalist presently living and reporting from Israel; Dr. Elwood McQuaid, the executive director of The Friends of Israel, who is an expert on the issues dividing Islam, Israel and the Western World; and Dr. Renald Showers, a professor who has served on the faculties of Lancaster Bible College, Moody Bible Institute and Philadelphia College of the Bible. Guys, today we want to start with the area in biblical prophecy when it talks about the geographical area to the north that we know as the Soviet Union, Russia.

Let me start you off with a verse here, Elwood, and I’d like you to comment on this. Ezekiel 38:15 says, God says, “And you will come from your place out of the remote parts of the north”—actually, the extreme north—”you, and many peoples with you, a great assembly, a mighty army, and you will come against my people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It will come about in the last days that I shall bring you against my land.”

Just a few weeks ago, Boris Yeltsin in Russia was operated on for heart surgery. He made it through that. As we tape this program, they’re trying to impeach him to get him out of power. The West has gambled in a big way. They’re banking everything on one guy staying in power. There is a fellow that in one of the elections, National Socialist Vladimir Zhirinovsky. He captured 25 percent of the vote for Russia’s lower house of Parliament. And he did so making this statement. He said, “When I’m elected, I’ll act as Hitler did in 1932.” He would go after the Jews in his own country, and I wonder what this would mean in terms of the Middle East. Start us off.

McQuaid: Vladimir Zhirinovsky said, “I may have to kill as many as 100,000 people, but I will make 300 million people very happy if I do that, because I will be a tyrant and I will deliver Russian imperialism back to the Russian people and we will once again have our place on the center-stage of this planet.” That’s a paraphrase but that’s what he said. He’s the man who threatened to ring this planet with nuclear devices; to take back Alaska; to bring us to our knees. The reason why there is the move to impeach Yeltsin today is because of his concessions to Chechnya and that is being interpreted by nationalists like Vladimir Zhirinovsky and Lebed and other men as a concession that is unacceptable. They want an imperial Russia.

We had the idea thinking like we do that we were going to send McDonald’s and Burger Kings and Pizza Huts and turn Russia into a democratic nation. That has not been true and will not be true. And we were just reading today, John, that with the economic union reaching out to include some of those places like Poland, Hungary, some of these nations that will strengthen them economically, that the Russian Bloc CIS nations who are not included in that are feeling like stepchildren and saying that “we’re going to come to the place that we’re not going to be impoverished. We’re going to rejoin and reconstitute the old Soviet Union and we’re going to have our day.” Now, that day includes, interestingly you mentioned anti-Semitism, and just remember the fact that the Soviet Union has been the chief arms agent for every nation that has set itself against Israel. That has historically been true and documented until the fall of the Soviet Union. Now what’s the Soviet Union doing? They’re getting again about the business of creating all the mischief they can in the Middle East against Israel.

We have the spy case here in the United States just a few days ago. Russia is not out of the spy business. They’re not out of the totalitarian business. In Syria today, they’re attempting to help the Syrians develop chemical warheads for those SCUD missiles that are longer range that can reach the heart of Israel. They are working with the Iraqis; they are providing nuclear facilities for the Iranians, and they are demanding in Jerusalem that they have a significant role in the future of Israel and the Middle East. So they are rattling their sabers once again and we have much to fear from a newly constituted Soviet Union.

One more thing I might add about that is, perhaps the most thought provoking element in this whole scenario, when you’re talking about Ezekiel 38, is that when Ezekiel 38 names those cohorts who will come with Russia, among them are the Iranians, the Lybians, the Sudanese, and those from Turkey. And they’re among…these are all militantly Muslim radical Iranian style “God is to defeat the infidels…that is, Allah”…and they’re on the side of the Soviet Union today. And the Word of God says they will be when they come down.

Ankerberg: Two questions, Rennie. Start me off. The Bible says, “Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. Prophesy against him and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshach and Tubal and I will turn you about, put hooks in your jaw. I’ll bring you out, all your army, horses and horsemen.’” He’s going to bring them down to Israel. Why do we think Gog, Magog and this group, we’re talking about Russia and then, Jimmy, tell me about, where are we at in terms of stability in the Soviet Union? Where are we at in terms of if they did go back to a military dictatorship, what kind of force do they still have in terms of power? What would we be facing? Rennie, start us off.

Showers: I think in response to your question, “Why would they do this?” certainly those Muslim nations, they want Israel annihilated because of what Muslim theology teaches. Muslim theology teaches that wherever Muslim feet had stood on planet earth, that area of the world from that time on belongs irrevocably and exclusively to their Muslim God Allah. And if any non-Muslim government, doesn’t have to be a Jewish government. It could be American, Canadian, German or French government, if any non-Muslim government is in control of that area or the world, that is a slap in the face, an embarrassment, a dishonor to their God, and therefore, if you’re really a devout Muslim, you are duty bound to do what you can to annihilate that non-Muslim government. And historically, many Muslim people have lived in the land of Israel, and so according to Muslim theology, that land belongs irrevocably to their Muslim God Allah and so for the honor of their God, they must try to annihilate Israel.

Russia, on the other hand, I’m convinced, will want to lead this for more than one reason. Interestingly, there is a secular independent intelligence agency in Great Britain that says that here is the current thinking of the disgruntled officers of the Russian military. They’re very disturbed over how their great nation has fallen apart at the seams beginning in 1991. But they are saying that Russia can still have super power status in the world if it will ally itself with the Islamic nations of the world against Israel. And so they will ally themselves with the Islamic nations, again, to have super power status.

Earlier this decade, I was on a ministry in Toronto, Canada, and a believer, after one of the services, approached me and said, “I want to share with you an interesting experience that I had in July of 1990.” This man had served in the Canadian Navy during World War II and his major tour of duty was on the Mermansk Run which was a constant supply of ships from the Allied Nations to Russia’s northern seaport, Mermansk, to help Russia in its eastern front war against Hitler and the Nazis. He said that in the summer of 1990, he and other Canadian seamen who served in that were invited to come to Toronto to attend a special ceremony sponsored by the Soviet government honoring those Canadian seamen from World War II. And he said after the ceremony, we were allowed to ask the spokesman of the Soviet government some questions.

One of our men, he said, asked him this question: “Is your government still requiring your young people in your public schools to learn the English language as their second language?” That had been the Soviet government’s policy since the end of World War II. The Soviet government spokesman said, “No. We’ve now changed that.” The second question was asked, “To what have you changed it?” He said, “We’re now requiring all of our young people in our public schools to learn the Arabic language as their second language.” The third question was asked, “Why the change?” He said, “Because my government has drawn the conclusion that the future of the Soviet Union lies with the Islamic nations of the world.” And so Russia, I’m convinced, will lead that invasion as foretold in Ezekiel 38 for the purpose of having status, super power status, and trying to gain control of the most strategic geographic location on the face of the earth.

Ankerberg: Alright, Jimmy, we’re going to take a break and when we come back, I want to set you up for what you’re going to say. Okay? In the book that I talked about a few weeks ago, The Samson Option, by Seymour M. Hersh, Pulitzer Prize winner. He made the statement—I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t know this. He talks about Moshe Dayan. He said he was the first in the Israeli Cabinet to predict that the Soviets, searching for any foothold they could get in their ideological struggle with the United States, now listen to this: that they would fill the power vacuum in the Middle East and become the major threat to Israel. In early July, Dayan warned in an interview with a “Frankfurter Allgemeine” newspaper of West Germany that if the Soviets chose to unite with the Arabs against Israel, he would not hesitate an instant to advise his government to fight and defeat the Russians just like the Arabs. And he’s talking, according to Hersh, about nuclear weapons. They actually had nuclear weapons pointed at Moscow using our satellite in the United States. They had pinpointed all the spots. Now when we come back—that’s what he said in the book—what I want to talk about is, the fact is, how capable are they? What would be the chemistry between the Soviet Union and the Arab world? I don’t understand that. Help us out when we come right back.

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Ankerberg: Welcome back. We’re talking about “Current World Events and Biblical Prophecy.” My guests are Dr. Jimmy DeYoung, Dr. Elwood McQuaid and Dr. Renald Showers. And Jimmy, you live in the Middle East right in Jerusalem. You have heard what the military defense people have said, the soldiers, what has been written in the newspapers. We don’t get all of the news that you get, and obviously, Israel is interested in what’s going on in the Soviet Union. From what I hear in Seymour Hersh’s book, The Samson Option, a Pulitzer Prize winner, that they have been afraid of the Soviet Union and thought that the Soviet Union was their main threat; that the Soviet Union could actually join with the Arab world. And I think all of us, we would like to know, what in the world is the compatibility between the Soviet Union and the Arab world? Why would they join together? Why would they be interested in going after Israel and how capable are they?

DeYoung: Both hate the Jewish people, first of all. I talked to Russia yesterday in light of the fact that we would be doing this program. I wanted to find out. And the man I talked with was 13 years with army intelligence; an officer in army intelligence observing what was going on in the Soviet Union. He has lived there for the last six years and he told me that the Russian people are born anti-foreigner, anti-Semite, etc., and 95% of the Russian people, the former Soviet Union, are opposed to any type of foreigner, whether it be Jew, but especially Jew, because of what’s happened. I asked the Israeli government after the fall of Communism were they more concerned?

You know, all the Bible prophecy teachers were saying, “Under Communism, that was going to draw the Russian people down into Israel to destroy the Jewish people.” I said, “Were you more concerned under Communism than you are today?” He said, “Absolutely not.” He reminded me of one thing. In 1917 it was two Jewish men who established Communism for the purpose of shutting down the Czars who were killing the Jews or under that leadership. I mean, it was a heyday. A Jew would walk on a Sabbat, on the Sabbath, through the park and they would take a rifle and kill them. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed prior to 1917. He said, “Communism, though it was an economic system doomed to failure, was established to stop the murder and the persecution of Jewish people. Now, out from under that, we are much more concerned.” And you asked me why the two together.

Remember the six southern republics of the former Soviet Union are all Islamic republics and in line with and cooperation with the main republic Russia itself. And there’s 60 million people down there. In addition to that, the Russian Orthodox Church, the state church of Russia, totally anti-Semitic. And that is the leadership that undergirds even the political leadership of a nation. There are 60 million of those. That’s over 120 million people, more than half the population of the former Soviet Union, totally anti-Semitic in their nature.

He talked about the instability as far as the leadership of Russia is concerned. Number one, I asked about Boris Yeltsin. He came through the heart bypass surgery. What did the people of Russia think? They said, you know, they don’t understand that technology. They believe he’s finished. They think he’s going to die. Meanwhile, there is all kind of jockeying for position from those men. For example, his former security chief, Alexander Lebed, a few moments ago Elwood was talking about Vladimir Zhirinovsky. Vladimir Zhirinovsky practically doesn’t have a chance to take over the leadership of Russia. Alexander Lebed does. And these are two men of the same ilk. The only thing is, Alexander Lebed has a felt glove. He’s a nationalist. He is a patriot. And the other day, they did a survey in Russia. He got 25% popularity rating of all Russians questioned. Boris Yeltsin had 15% popularity rating. This man is maneuvering himself into leadership of this nation. I’m not a prophet nor the son of a prophet. But I predict he would be the next leader. And he is the type of man who would do exactly what Alexander Lebed wants to do.

Ankerberg: Listen to this. Today, on the news wire. Just came across. Lebed, the ousted Russian national security chief, just asked the United States for $400 million. Do you know what they asked for? To help safeguard Russia’s nuclear arsenal which he said is vulnerable to blackmail and terrorism. The money would guard nuclear missiles and stockpiles of an estimated—listen to this—1,500 tons of plutonium and enriched uranium. Lebed said, “Current safeguards were unsatisfactory and that a single terrorist could hold the world hostage.” He has made a bunch of other statements but tell us about the capabilities that are still there.

DeYoung: The matter of life is that all of Russia is corrupt. They are deceptive. They would be willing to lie, number one. And corruption goes to the highest ranks of government. We know that even the chief of staff for Boris Yeltsin is at the point of being indicted for taking millions of dollars during the campaign. In addition to that, the Mafia controls the state of Russia and the concern that the people there have is that the Mafia, the only way that a nuclear weapon or some type of nuclear capability to get into the hands of a terrorist was through the opportunity the Mafia makes available and only with their approval. The situation is that the stage is set for all of that talked about in Ezekiel 38 to take place.

And let me tell you about the “hook.” The hook that’s going to draw them down. I talked not too long ago to the chief geologist of the Israel National Oil Company, INOC. He said they are at the point of making the greatest discovery of oil. It’s called deep stick oil, and it’s going to be down at the Dead Sea. Now think with me for just a moment. Here’s Iraq. Here’s Saudi Arabia. Here’s Jordan. Here’s all the oil producing countries of the world. Here’s the Dead Sea at this elevation. And you know, when you stick a straw into a soda, you suck from the bottom and the top goes down. Wouldn’t it be just like God to let them put an oil well there and get that deep stick oil and pull the oil from all the Arab countries of the world and it be that hook that would reach into Russia and bring them down. They’re in a strategic location. They have foodstuffs. They’re the bread basket of most of the world. And Russia needs that. Somebody said, “Wait a minute. Russia has all the oil. In fact they have more oil than any nations of the world.” They don’t have the technology to get it out of the ground.

Ankerberg: Elwood, Tom Clancy wrote a novel, The Hunt for Red October, which was about one typhoon submarine. It carries 200 nuclear weapons. That was just one at that time. They built 34 of those. Multiply 34 of those typhoon submarines floating around the world times 200. Every one of those warheads is capable of ionizing one of our American cities. Where are all of those submarines?

McQuaid: An interesting side note to that is that Russia has just supplied three submarines of devastating capability to Syria and supplying them to these other countries and where are these submarines? The Israelis are very much concerned about this because they say, you know, there are other things we can track. We can’t track submarines. All of our supplies, I think some 93 percent of their goods come in by sea, what could submarines do against us in the event they were used against us? Where are they? They’re out to make mischief for sure.

Ankerberg: Yeah. And add to that. Just doing a little research on Kazakhstan, okay, which is the majority of the people in Kazakhstan, which is one of the satellites that have broken off, is Muslim. The deal is that Kazakhstan, according to statistics, has within its borders enough nuclear missiles to be the fifth leading nuclear power in the world. Just this little cut-off of the Soviet Union.

McQuaid: Exactly. And that’s the thing that brings what Jimmy said a moment ago, not only the historical focus but into very clear biblical focus. When we talk about the issues there and what are the bottom line issues in the Middle East? Why would Russia join these Muslim states in attempting to annihilate Israel? Well, the Scripture says in the twelfth verse of Ezekiel 38 that they come to take a spoil and to take a prey. That’s the motivation for coming down and joining together—these Islamic states and Russia. That’s only one side of the coin. Yes, there’s oil. Yes, there’s immense wealth in the Dead Sea. But it says something else that is almost universally overlooked, John, and that is this. And I think it’s more important. It says, “and to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations.” This is vindictive as well as exploitive and I think it again manifests this Satan-God struggle. We mentioned Alexander Lebed. They don’t know a lot about him. He is the heir apparently to Yeltsin. The diplomats are guessing about what he believes, what he is really bottomline up to. But they do know two things about him. First of all, they know that he hates Jews. He is violently anti-Semitic. And that he wants all Evangelical Christians and Christian activity expelled from the former Soviet Union. So we know that. So to take a spoil, to take a prey, yes. But to turn a hand against the people and against the land. It’s vindictive.

Ankerberg: Tell us, for the person that wants to know the Lord Jesus Christ, the One who is coming back, how would a person come into a relationship with that One?

McQuaid: Well, let me say, first of all, it’s time for people to take that very, very seriously, because as we scan the prophetic scene and look at what’s going on, we look at the Middle East searching for peace. This desperate search for peace. It’s almost an obsession. They have not found it; they will not find it; because there’s only one source of peace and that is in the Messiah of Israel and the Sovereign Savior of the world, Jesus Christ. If there’s ever an object lesson that an individual can take from national catastrophe and international catastrophe, it is this. That there is no solution except in God. And if you narrow that down to your own heart and life, know this: that the only option you have if you want peace is Jesus Christ. And you can find Jesus Christ by receiving the gift of God which is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. But the time to do it is now, John. There’s no time to wait.

Ankerberg: Alright. I agree. Next week we’re going to turn to another area of biblical prophecy that has started to take place within our own lifetime. 1993 you had the formation of the European Union, 345 million eager-beaver Europeans all went together. We think that has something to do with prophecy. It might even have something to do with the Antichrist. We’re going to talk about it next week. I hope you’ll join us. 

What Role Will the European Union Play in End Time Events?

Ankerberg: Welcome! We’re talking about “Current World Events and Biblical Prophecy.” We have three distinguished guests with us: Dr. Jimmy DeYoung, an international journalist presently living and reporting from Jerusalem, Israel; Dr. Elwood McQuaid, Executive Director of The Friends of Israel. He is an expert on the issues dividing Islam, Israel and the Western World. And Professor Dr. Renald Showers from Lancaster Bible College, Moody Bible Institute and Philadelphia College of the Bible. Gentlemen, we’re glad that you’re here.

Dr. Showers, I’d like you to start us off. In the news we’ve all been watching the European Union. On January 1, 1993, Western Europe became a single economic market linking 345 million people in 12 nations together. It eliminated all the tariffs and the custom barriers. I have some business friends that are in Europe. They thought that was the greatest thing since sliced bread because they got rid of the bureaucracy of 12 different countries.

German Chancellor Helmut Kohl said, “Europe will move into an ever-closer community, not just a free trade zone.” They have already agreed on further unification efforts, including the issuing of a single currency no later than 1999; to forge a common foreign and security policy. They want to influence and control in these 12 nations education, public health, culture, consumer protection, industry, research and development, the environment and social affairs. According to Forbes magazine, by the year 2010, the EU will be ranked number one in the world’s economy. The United States will be second, China will be third, and Japan will be fourth.

Now, when people that know their Bible read their Bible, we talk in terms of prophecy about something called the Revived Roman Empire. My question to you is, explain that to our audience and could it be that this European Union of countries, the EU, could it be that this is the Revived Roman Empire?

Showers: In Daniel Chapter 7 the prophet Daniel recorded a prophetic vision that God gave to him. In that vision God portrayed the whole future course of Gentile world dominion from Daniel’s day, when Babylon was a great world power, right up to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus. And Daniel saw four wild animals coming out of the sea. The first one was a winged lion; that represented Babylon in his day. The second one was a lopsided bear and that represented the next Gentile kingdom, Medo-Persia. The third one was a four-winged, four-headed leopard. That represented Greece initially under Alexander the Great. But then the fourth beast was so terrible in its overwhelming destructive power that there was no animal alive on the face of the earth that fit the description of that and that represented the Roman Empire.

And as Daniel was watching this fourth beast, he noted that there were ten horns upon its head and he was really curious as to what this fourth beast and the ten horns represented and there was an interpreting angel that accompanied the prophetic vision.

And the angel said that the fourth beast represented a fourth kingdom, a Gentile kingdom that would appear upon the world scene and would be able to conquer just about everything that would be in its way. But then he said, “Out of that kingdom there would be ten kings represented by the ten horns.” In other words, ten rulers that would arise. The angel was indicating that the Roman Empire would go through at least two phases of history. One would be the beast conquering phase and that was certainly true of the ancient Roman Empire. But then the second phase would be a revived form of the Roman Empire that would consist of ten divisions confederated together under ten equal rulers.

Now, it’s interesting when you go back and study the history of the ancient Roman Empire, you find that never did the ancient Roman Empire consist of ten divisions with ten equal rulers ruling at the same time. And so in light of that, students of the Word of God are forced to conclude that the second stage of the Roman Empire’s history is yet future. It has not yet appeared upon the world scene. And many scholars are convinced, and I believe they’re right on this, that this is the direction that, formerly known as the Common Market, now the European Union is heading. One of the reasons we are convinced that is true is because ever since the western half of the ancient Roman Empire fell to barbarians in 476 AD, key Western European leaders have had the dream of someday reviving the Roman Empire on planet earth. And so we are convinced that this Revived Roman Empire will be formed in Western Europe and that initially it will consist of ten divisions with ten equal rulers.

Interestingly, on March 25, 1957, leaders of six Western European nations gathered on the Palatine Hill in the city of Rome and formed what became known as “The Common Market.” And when that was started, a number of Western European leaders expressed the hope that this eventually would develop into a federation of Western European nations that they could call the United States of Europe. And the intriguing thing is, you mentioned, John, that up until recently there were twelve member nations; now it has increased to fifteen; and some are saying it looks as if it could quickly swell to nineteen member nations because other European nations are filing application to join.

What do we do with the number “ten” that’s there in the Book of Daniel? By the way, you have it again in Revelation 17:10. Interestingly, again, in Forbes magazine, there was a German banking firm, the Dresdner Bank, that ran a fascinating advertisement about the direction that Europe is heading with the Common Market or European Union. And they indicated that once this system is fully operational, Europe is going to be reorganized, not into nations but into regions; that they’re going to do away with national boundaries and reorganize Western Europe into regions. And so the number ten could very well be referring to ten regions rather than ten nations. But it will be a revived form of the ancient Roman Empire that initially will consist of a confederation of ten divisions with ten equal rulers.

DeYoung: You know, right at the Gulf Crisis, at the end of the Gulf Crisis, as a journalist I was covering a conference because members, political leaders in Europe decided they needed to have a conference with Israel after the Gulf Crisis. Most of their food stuffs are imported out of Israel. I don’t know if you know this or not, but Holland exports to the world about 65% of the flowers and they import from Israel 70% of their flowers. And so Israel is key as far as the economy of Europe is concerned.

They have the first European-Israel Conference. And in that conference—I was covering it as a journalist—in the conference a member of the European Parliament got up and he said exactly what Rennie was talking about. “We have been inundated with requests to become members of the European Community or the EU or the EC.” And he said, “I don’t know what we’re going to do. Some of them we know for sure we’re going to have to turn them down.” He talked about Morocco, for example. But then he made this statement–and this was a parliamentarian of the European Parliament. He said, “What we’re going to have to do is expand our vision, enlarge our borders, and in fact, we need to enlarge the borders of the European Community to be the exact same borders of the old Roman Empire.” I picked myself up off the floor after it was over, checked my tape recorder to make sure I had that statement, and I did.

Ankerberg: Let’s move on to the next spot and that is, let’s say that it is. Big deal. Why is that so important?

McQuaid: Well, I think there’s an indication of that in something that happened just a few years ago, really to the surprise of everyone. I was having lunch with a friend of mine who was a diplomat in the Israeli Embassy in Washington. He’s now the Ambassador to Ethiopia. And during the middle of our lunch he said, “You know, something interesting is going to happen that’s going to surprise many people in about three weeks.”

And I said, “What’s that.”

And he said, “We’re going to establish diplomatic relations with the Vatican.”

And I said, “That’s interesting. Why hasn’t it been done before?”

He said, “Well, there were always arguments over mostly our making concessions to the Vatican that we refused to make. However, they suddenly came to us and said, ‘Let’s forget all that. Let’s make diplomatic relations now. We’ll settle all these smaller issues at a future time.’ So we are going to establish diplomatic relations, we’re going to exchange ambassadors to the Vatican and to Israel.”

And then I said, “Why are they doing this now after all of these years?”

And he said this: “When the final determination is made later in this century about the future of Jerusalem, the Vatican wants to have a seat on the international body that controls the destiny and determines the future destiny of Jerusalem.”

And I think that when you combine what we just heard with this aspect of it, that Western Europe is interested religiously, politically, economically in the future of Israel and everybody wants a piece of it.

Ankerberg: We’re going to take a break and when we come back, we’ll let you get right into it, Jimmy. Here’s the thing. What I was driving at is that the Bible says the person, this charismatic political leader that is going to kind of persuade the world to follow him, that is going to lead this Revived Roman Empire, is going to make a peace treaty with Israel. Okay? We have Israel as a nation back in the land and Voila! We’ve got the whole world putting pressure on them to settle for peace. I want to know, do you think the Antichrist is going to show up soon, according to what you’re seeing? Why would Israel believe the political leader out of the European Union and trust them to guard them and, oh, by the way, what happened to America because we’re the ones that are protecting her right now? I think that’ll be keeping them hanging until we get right back. Stick with us.

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Ankerberg: We’re back and we’re talking with three distinguished guests about “Current World Events and Biblical Prophecy.” And Jimmy DeYoung, let me come to you. You reside in Jerusalem, Israel. We’ve talked about the European Union that is taking place right before our eyes. If that is the Revived Roman Empire that the Bible predicts, the Bible also predicts that out of that Revived Roman Empire we’re going to have a political leader that’s going to come forth. He’s going to persuade the world, in essence, to follow him and he’s also going to make a deal with Israel. Do you see that happening anytime soon?

DeYoung: I certainly do. I believe that individual who is Antichrist, who will be energized by Satan is alive and well on planet earth. In October of 1991, as a journalist I was in the city of Rome. The Pope called together the political leaders and the religious leaders of all of Europe. They had a conference. “What can we do to jell the European Community into one unit?”

After three days, the Pope held a news conference and he said, “The lowest common denominator to pull these nations together is religion.” And this one world leader, the Antichrist, not only will be a great political leader in this world, but a religious leader as well over a one world religion. Antichrist will come up out of the European Community.

Rennie gave us the scenario from Daniel Chapter 7. Ten nations come together. Ten horns that was talked about there, the little horn, Antichrist, comes to power. He then, it says, “confirms.” I always used to say, “Wait a minute. The Antichrist has to sign a peace treaty with Israel.” And after the Camp David Accords people asked me, “Was that the peace treaty?” After the Declaration of Principles in September of ‘93 between the Palestinians and the Israelis? Is that it? No. After, and I was at the spot when they signed the treaty between Jordan and Israel. I was in the Arabah there at the Red Sea the day, October 26, 1994, that they signed it. People called me, “Is this?” And I said, “No!” Then I went back to Daniel 9:27 and I looked at that verse again. It says, “And he shall confirm a covenant with many for seven years.” I said, “Wait a minute.” I looked up that word “confirm” in the Hebrew. It’s gabar. And it doesn’t say, “sign,” it says, “confirm.” Make stronger, strengthen. Here’s a Camp David Accord. It’s not working. It has never been normalized. Here is the Palestinian-Israeli Oslo Accord. It’s not working. The only one that seems to be normalizing is the Jordan-Israeli Accord and all of these on the table and not working, ready for someone to come in, make it stronger, strengthen it, confirm it—the Antichrist.

One final thought. The Bible tells us that Antichrist is going to be ushered in by something very interesting; unique events taking place. Matthew 24:24 says, “Almost the very elect will be deceived by Antichrist through signs, wonders and miracles.” 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 says Antichrist will come to power through signs, wonders and miracles. The Book of Revelation Chapter 13 says, “The false prophet will perform signs, wonders and miracles, calling fire out of heaven.” And Antichrist, Satan, the false prophet will call the nations of the world with signs, wonders and miracles. In my opinion, the greatest indicator, the most solid evidence of the soon coming of Antichrist—signs, wonders and miracles—that are prevalent across our world, even in our Christian world.

McQuaid: And there’s another element in that also, John, that we see coming to the fore today as never in the history of this country, certainly never in our own experience. It also said that the hallmark of the character of the Antichrist is going to be blasphemy. And he blasphemes God. Blasphemes His sanctuary. Blasphemes His people. So the hallmark of his life and work is going to be blasphemy. So we see these coming together. An unprecedented preoccupation with the occult, with signs, wonders. The world is becoming more credulous as we become more sophisticated and more educated, which is a very strange kind of a thing. We thought education would free us, but it’s bringing a kind of the servitude as it divorces itself from God and moral standards and values so there’s obsession with the occult; there is rampant blasphemy in every phase of our society, and I think it’s saying that the door is swinging open for the entry of the Antichrist.

Ankerberg: Elwood, tell me this. What happens to America?

McQuaid: There’s only one place in the Bible that I can find America in Bible prophecy. Of course, there are those who tell us. A man told me sometime ago, he said, “You really don’t know Bible prophecy. If you knew anything about it, you would know that America is in Bible prophecy.” And I said, “Well, teach me, please.” And he said, “Spell Jerusalem.” And I said, “Jerusalem.” He said, “There it is, stupid. USA right in the center of Jerusalem. You can’t spell Jerusalem without the….” I mean, that’s the kind of thing we hear. And by the way, in a practical way we should all run as quickly as we can from all of those types of kook fringe manifestations of so-called biblical prophecy.

But when the Scripture speaks, in the Book of Zechariah Chapter 14 of all the nations being gathered together against Jerusalem and against His people and against His Messiah and against His city, I believe there you can identify where the United States will be in biblical prophecy. Otherwise, what I see is this. And of course, we can only give this a best-guess scenario. We are becoming militarily inadequate. We have lost our will to use the power that we have. We’re becoming economically insignificant. We’re becoming morally degenerate. And we’re becoming a people who has lost its focus on the importance of our relationship to the nation Israel and to the proclamation of the Gospel of God’s grace. And for those reasons, I believe the United States is fast going off the scene as a significant entity.

DeYoung: And you know we’re being programmed to explain away—not “we.” That’s an editorial “we” I’m talking about. We, that know Christ, will be caught up at the Rapture. We won’t be here during that time. But the world is being programmed, especially the United States of America, to explain away the Rapture. Independence Day! We happened to catch that film on the flight coming back from Israel. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. An invasion from outer space? E.T. the number one film of all time. Toys being sold. We’re going to be able to explain away the Rapture after it takes place by saying, “Well, it was an invasion from outer space and I can prove that because we saw all the evidence in the last couple of years.” So we’re being programmed for that to happen.

Ankerberg: Rennie, how does the world’s acceptance of the New Age Movement and the occult aid this political leader, the Antichrist, according to Scripture?

Showers: Well, the Antichrist in the middle of the seven-year Tribulation period will go into Jerusalem, take control there, take control of the new temple the Jews will have; take his seat in that temple, Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2, and announce that he is God. As a man he is going to claim Deity for himself. Interestingly, some of the “God is dead” theologians of the 1960s, Thomas Altizer for one, said that it’s not until all of us acclaim ourselves “the great humanity divine” that we’ll have a perfect utopian society. That’s a Protestant theologian saying we’re moving toward deity as human beings. The Roman Catholic theologians have been saying that, some of them, in recent years. The New Age Movement, one of its major premises is that mankind is moving toward divinity or deity. Secular humanists with their tremendous emphasis upon man and the glory of man are emphasizing the same thing. And it’s interesting that all this emphasis on man moving toward deity is converging together around the middle of this century and I really believe it’s Satan’s way of beginning to condition the thinking, particularly of Western man, so that when Satan’s ultimate man, the Antichrist, in the middle of the Tribulation says he’s God, most people in the Western World will have no problem accepting that claim at all because we’re already being fed that line now, that we’re moving toward deity.

McQuaid: Think, also, John, of how much of our religion, if we can use that term in a general way, among Evangelical Christians is moving toward the horizontal rather than the vertical. How few people are really interested in prophecy? How many people are interested in relationships that make us feel better about where we are right now and how we’re going to live successfully in the “here and now.” And I think it amplifies what Rennie just said.

Ankerberg: Jimmy?

DeYoung: In any Christian bookstore you pick up 95% of the books in there are egocentric.

Showers: Self improvement.

DeYoung: In other words, how can I be better? You know, the study of prophecy–and I must compliment you for doing this program because the Book of Revelation Chapter 19, verse 10 says, “The spirit of prophecy is the Person of Jesus Christ.” And as we think of the prophetic scenario unfolding in the days in which we live, we will get away from egocentric activity, even those of us who know and love Jesus as Lord and Savior, and become Christo-centric. That’s what we need to be.

Ankerberg: Wrap up in 30 seconds, for Christians tonight that are watching, the Bible has a lot to say that when you see prophetic events and when you hear the statements that are made in Scripture that we are to do something and to be something, talk to that point.

DeYoung: Number one, we’re to be prepared. Prepare for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Preparation and admitting you’re a sinner, believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, calling upon Him to come into your life and save you. Once you’re prepared, we need to live productively. Titus was told by Paul, “Lay aside ungodliness and worldly lusts. Live soberly, godly and righteously.” How do you lay aside, how do you live? “Looking for the blessed hope and the glorious appearing….” We need to walk and live pure. And thirdly, we need to be productive in these last days before the Rapture takes place. We need to tell our friends of the soon coming of Jesus Christ and help them to be prepared for that soon coming.

Ankerberg: Absolutely. We’ve got Russia, we’ve got Israel and the Middle East, we’ve got the European Union, and we’ve got the Arab Confederacy. The Bible also talks about another group. It talks about the “Kings of the East.” I think these are the Asian countries and we want to talk about them next week and what the Bible has to say about them. I hope that you’ll join us. 

Who Are the Kings of the East?

Ankerberg: Welcome to our program. We’re talking about a fascinating topic: What does the Bible have to say about “Current World Events” or if you want, “How do current world events relate to what the Bible says is coming about in the future?” And we’ve talked about Israel; we’ve talked about what’s going on in Russia; we’ve talked about what’s going on in the European Union of Nations. We’ve talked a little bit about the Arab world. And now we want to talk to another fascinating topic that most people do not realize that the Bible even speaks to, and that is what I call “the Kings of the East.” That’s what the Bible says. The Asian countries.

Dr. Showers, you’ve written many books, articles. I’d like for you to talk the point: Revelation 16:12 says, “The sixth angel poured out his bowl upon the great river, the Euphrates, and its water was dried up that the way might be prepared for the kings from the east.” Revelation 9:16 says two hundred million soldiers will travel southwest and enter the war with Israel. I think you have a different opinion on that one than some of our guys on the platform, so I want to hear both of them. But first of all, who are the “Kings of the East” in terms of the countries today? What do you think?

Showers: The Bible doesn’t name them for us, but we’re forced to conclude that they’re Asiatic nations. And I take it they could include all the nations of the Far East moving toward the Middle East. And the key passage there really is the Revelation 16 passage because that’s where it clearly says “the kings of the east.”

Ankerberg: When will that take place, by the way?

Showers: Well, John indicates that will take place when the sixth bowl judgment is poured out by God upon the world during the future Tribulation period, and that is the next to the last judgment of the Tribulation. So that will transpire almost at the very end of the Tribulation period. And John is indicating that God will dry up the waters of the Euphrates River to make it easy for these Asiatic forces to move west toward the land of Israel and the Middle East. If you go on further in that same prophecy, it talks then about all the nations sending their armies there at that time so that it’s indicating that Asia will be sending its armies together with the armies of all the other Gentile nations of the world into the land of Israel there at the very end of the seven-year Tribulation period.

Ankerberg: Most scholars have made this list. See if you guys would add something to this. We’ve got China; we’ve got Japan; we’ve got India, Pakistan, Taiwan, North and South Korea, Singapore. Others?

DeYoung: Cambodia, Thailand, Indonesia. That makes this a group of about three billion people, more than half the population of the world. And when you’re talking about the Euphrates River that’s going to dry up, the Euphrates River is basically that border between the Middle East and the Far East. In addition to this, I was in Turkey this last May doing a television shoot and while there our guide told us of a Turkish government project to build 21 dams on the Euphrates River in Turkey because, number one, they don’t have the oil but they do have water. Somebody said the next great war is going to be over water rights in the Middle East. But they have water and they are going to build this dam to reserve their water. What has happened, though, they did put one dam up. They stopped up the Euphrates to just a trickle. And you’ve got to remember, the Euphrates goes through Syria, then into Iraq. President Assad of Syria, President Saddam Hussein of Iraq both went livid when Turkey stopped that water. I’m not saying that this is how God’s going to dry up the Euphrates River, I’m simply saying the potential is there even today for the Euphrates to be dried up.

Ankerberg: Let’s get to a spot that we disagree with on the platform, okay? And Elwood, do you want to start off first, and that’s this very controversial statement of Revelation 9:16. I’m going to start with you, Jimmy, because you broke this story. Okay? It says that we’re going to have two hundred million who are going to travel southwest and enter this war. Now, you believe that’s 200 million actual soldiers. Never in history have we had it. How did you break that story?

DeYoung: Well, I believe it’s 200 million soldiers. I don’t want to debate the great theologian Dr. Renald Showers here. But as I look at it, it has to be an army that’s marching. I had the privilege and opportunity a couple of years ago to be at the Pentagon. While I was speaking, I was speaking to those who were making decisions today that were going to affect tomorrow. And I told them, “If you’re going to make a decision today to affect tomorrow, you better know today what’s going to happen tomorrow.” I spoke on the Book of Revelation. I talked about an army, a militia of 200 million soldiers, two hundred thousand thousand, and after I concluded, the man who is responsible for watching the troop movements of the nations of the world came up to me and said, “Let me just say something to you. We now know that Red China has a militia of 200 million soldiers.” Time magazine right after that confirmed that fact. The only nations of the world that could put together 200 million soldiers in a militia and in particular one nation would be Red China. Part of the Kings of the East. Now, I happen to believe that’s the way it’s going to come. As I look at those judgments, the trumpet and the vial judgments, they are in the last three and a half years of the Tribulation period; but in addition to that, they are happening very, very quickly and I believe they’ll be close to the end of the time of the Tribulation that all of these come together.

Ankerberg: Rennie, whether we take that view or the one you’re going to announce in a minute, two verses after that, 9:18, says that a third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur that came out of their mouths. Does that sound like nuclear war to you?

Showers: No, I’m not convinced it is, John, and the interesting thing is, the Greek makes it very clear these are not one and the same instrument. They are three separate, distinct entities. Whereas, if it’s nuclear war, that would all be caused by one particular thing, nuclear weapons. I personally believe that these are not men. It doesn’t say that they are marching armies and it doesn’t say that they are the kings of the East. Many conclude that because what unleashes this is four evil angels who are bound at the River Euphrates being set loose. And some have grabbed hold of that and said this means they’re bringing in armies from Asia.

But the interesting thing is, number one, that happens with the sixth trumpet judgment. According to Revelation 16, the “kings of the east” don’t come until the sixth bowl judgment, which is one trumpet and five or six bowl judgments later when the “kings of the east” come and when they come, the River Euphrates is going to be dried up so they’re able to come. On top of that, when you look at what it says in Revelation 9 about this 200 million, it’s not the riders who are on the back of the horses there that are causing the devastation. It’s the horses that are causing the devastation. And they’re not normal horses. They have horses’ bodies but they have lions’ heads. And they have snakes’ tails with heads of snakes on the back. And so out of the mouth of these horses are coming fire, smoke and brimstone or burning sulphur. But then in addition, the serpent’s heads on their tails are causing devastation to human beings as well. And you know, to me that’s not talking about human armies or human armaments; that this is demonic activity. It said that the four angels that were set loose there were bound before they were set loose. Holy angels are not bound; only evil angels are bound. And these would be demons who are set loose and as a result, then, you have these 200 million coming forth to kill one third of the people of the world. And it’s a judgment of God, you know, upon the people of the world. The interesting thing is, as well, it’s brought totally upon unbelievers, earthdwellers. You go back to the previous chapter, these same people are called “earthdwellers” and it talks about people whose names were not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. So that the term “earthdwellers” in the Book of Revelation always refers to unbelievers. So it’s totally unbelievers that are being killed here so it’s the judgment of God upon these people.

Ankerberg: Elwood, why do you think that the “kings of the east” will be interested in going into the Middle East against Israel?

McQuaid: Well, I think one of the things that we’re going to have to consider is that the end-time line-up of the nations are entities of actual nations. Sometimes we overplay, I think, initially the importance of the Antichrist. He’s initially one player among many. We have the king of the North; we have the king of the South. We have the western confederation. We have the kings of the East. And these are, in my view, a confederation of nations that are under the domination of the prince of the power of the air who is moving a godless world system against God, against His Christ, against His people. Now, I can’t tell you all the motivations for their coming except to say that, number one, we have this phrase that we had in Ezekiel 38 of this obsession with dethroning God and that also includes destroying His people. It’s a satanic strategy. Anti-Semitism, for example, John, is all predicated–it doesn’t matter where you find it–on a very simple base and that is this: God has made some literal historical promises to the people of Israel. One day that nation will be reconciled to God through the Messiah. One day they’ll be reestablished. The King will rule over that Kingdom. One day every promise God has made in minutest detail will be lived out on the stage of human history in every way. Satan is attempting in destroying Israel, whether it’s the kings of the East, king of the North, king of the South, or the Antichrist, to wipe out the Jewish people before God can deliver His promises and they can realize their destiny.

Ankerberg: We’re going to take a break here, and when we come back, I want to get to this thing of, what is the scenario of the nations getting involved and going to war with Israel? We’ve talked about Russia attacking. We’ve talked about the Arabs attacking. We have talked about Europe and then the Antichrist coming out and makes a peace treaty but then deceives Israel. We’ve got the “kings of the east.” I’d like to know, gentlemen, what the scenario is: A, B, C, D, during this time Jesus said is going to be the worst time on planet earth, the Tribulation. We’ll talk about that when we come right back. Stick with us.

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Ankerberg: Alright, we’re back, and we’re talking about “Current World Events and Biblical Prophecy.” We want to look into the future here and what the Bible says is going to happen in this Great Tribulation, or the Tribulation time period, seven-year period that comes after the Rapture. And gentlemen, we’ve talked about these different entities, namely, Israel and the Arab World; Israel and Russia; Israel and the European Union of Nations. Now we’re talking about the Asian countries and the Bible has something to say about all of them. And we have heard a lot about the Battle of Armageddon. But there’s a series of huge battles in this Tribulation time period. Jimmy, give me your scenario. What comes first? What comes second? What comes third? What’s going to happen according to Scripture?

DeYoung: As I understand the Book of Daniel Chapter 11, which happens to be the most detailed chapter in prophecy that I’ve ever read in my life, looking into the future, down the corridor in time, Daniel is given the information. He talks about in verse 40 “the king of the north” and the “king of the south” coming at Israel. Now, you can go back to the first part of Chapter 11. The definition of the “king of the north,” Syria; “king of the south,” Egypt. And these two nations coming against Israel. This is prior to Antichrist coming into the glorious holy land–that’s chapter 11, verse 41. So I see Syria, who as we speak, is perched on the northern border of Israel at Mount Hermon with their elite commando fighting force, the fifth largest army in the world, ready to come in and take back the Golan Heights. And they’re going to have a coalition.

By the way, after the Gulf Crisis, Syria and Egypt signed the Damascus Declaration which said these two nations were forming a coalition and they would go against anybody who hurt the Palestinian people or the Palestinian cause. Syria in the north, Egypt in the south, and as I speak, again, military exercise by the Egyptian army, the most populated Arab nation of the world, in the Sinai, both perched, ready to come into Israel. The Bible says Antichrist comes in, destroys Syria, goes through Ammon, Moab and Edom. Modern day Jordan–doesn’t touch it. Let me tell you why.

There’s a place in southern Jordan in what was Edom in biblical times, Petra, which I believe is the place God has prepared to take care of at least one third of the Jewish people. He goes through Jordan, goes into Egypt, destroys Egypt, turns around, starts back towards Jerusalem. Then it says he hears something at his heels nipping away.

First of all, he looks and he sees it’s Ethiopia, Sudan and Libya. Then he hears rumblings in the East and the North. Now, it’s not Syria any longer. They’ve been destroyed by Antichrist. The northern person there, the group there would be Russia and her group of satellite nations, Turkey. Then you have in the East Persia or Iran, Ezekiel 38. You have in the West Libya; you have in the South Ethiopia and Sudan. They come against Israel. Ezekiel 38 says God rains hell, fire and brimstone out of Heaven destroying these nations. I think this is after the Rapture of the Church, soon after the Rapture of the Church.

Then it says, interestingly, in verse 44 of Daniel 11, what it says right there is, Antichrist goes at these attacking nations with fury and tries to make away many of these. In other words, it seems to say that he’s going to usurp the victory that God has over these attacking nations. And in verse 45 it says Antichrist then goes on to the holy Temple Mount and sets up the palace of his tabernacle. And you know what, he’s promised to give peace to the Jews; then he clears the Temple Mount with a SCUD, or an earthquake or whatever, and he says, “Put your temple up.” The temple is built. That’s the beginning of the Tribulation period in the first three and a half years. The conclusion is, when these nations, and we’ve already mentioned it before, three billion peoples out there in the Far East make ready to come in.

It’s interesting to note, that coalition of the nations in the first three and a half years, mostly Islamic. And the Islamic threat can be taken out and Antichrist comes to power over a one world religion. The Moslem world, I think, is devastated at that time. Now, the other religiosities of the world, wanting to come in–and why would Red China? Why would the “kings of the east”? They’re going to become the great economic power. You said it at the beginning, the bridge to all the natural resources of Africa, that great continent, would be available for them. They have to have the opportunity to get those natural resources and become the great economic power of the hour. The strategic location of the state of Israel. They’re going to come in…and by the way, they then become the power of the Third World nations and the old saying, “Any enemy of a friend of mine is my enemy,” that’s the Jewish people. And they would be willing to come in and that is the end-time scenario prior to Jesus Christ coming back to the earth and establishing His Kingdom.

Ankerberg: Want to add to that?

McQuaid: The interesting question is raised: “How can the Tribulation temple be built? Who will build it?” We know how that any attempt to build a Jewish temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem would be a holy war and the entire Islamic world would come against it. The only way that could be done today would be if the United States, the number one super power of the world, would say, “We stand behind the Jews’ right to build a temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem and demand that the Muslim world stand back because we have the smart bombs. We demonstrated that in Iraq.” I think that the Antichrist, when he comes to power, is going to do exactly the same thing. Because the Islamic world, and remember, those “kings of the east,” some are from Indonesia, Pakistan, these are militantly anti-Israel Muslim countries. So they’re not going to be any more congratulatory to the Antichrist for allowing the Jews to build a temple on Mount Moriah than they would today. They’re adamant in that. And I believe that he’s going to say with that peace agreement with Israel, that confirmation, “Alright, the Jews can now build their temple. I’m going to guarantee it like Herod of old or like whoever in history. I’m going to guarantee it. The Muslim world and the rest of the world, stand back, you religions. Israel is going to have her temple.” And I think that’s one of the reasons why the Muslim world and some of the “kings of the east” and these others are going to have such hatred for the Antichrist that they’re going to want to move against him and destroy him. I think that’s very much a factor.

Ankerberg: Rennie, wrap it up. We’ve got the fact of that midpoint of the Tribulation when he goes into the temple, proclaims himself to be God. Then take us through the last three and a half years and the climax.

Showers: Antichrist in the middle of the Tribulation will turn against Israel and begin desolating it worse than it’s ever been desolated in all of past history. And as we’ve noted, as God is pouring out His judgments upon Satan’s domain, which will also be Antichrist’s domain, toward the end of the Tribulation period, Satan, the Antichrist, the false prophet will use demonic influence to persuade all the rulers of all the nations of the world to bring their armies together in the land of Israel.

Now, again, going back to what Elwood has mentioned before, notice, Satan ultimately is behind this. Why does he want the combined military might of the Gentile world gathered in the land of Israel by the end of the Tribulation period? For two reasons. Number one, to try to prevent the Second Coming of Christ coming back to planet earth because he knows that when Jesus gets back here, it’s all over for him. But the second reason is to be his instrument to try to totally annihilate the Jews from the face of the earth.

Why is it Satan wants to destroy that particular group of people? It’s because of a program God has committed Himself to, namely, that God will not finally crush Satan and get rid of him and his forces from planet earth until the nation of Israel repents and believes in Jesus Christ as its Messiah and Savior. Now, Satan knows the Bible very well. He quoted it to Jesus when he tempted Him. And so he knows that’s God’s program. And to Satan’s way of thinking, if God will not crush me until Israel repents, if I can totally annihilate Israel before it repents and believes in Jesus Christ, God will never crush me. And that’s why even down through the centuries of time why the Holocaust of World War II, and now, in the Tribulation period, Israel, over and over and over again, more than any other national group on the face of the earth has been pursued and hounded and attempted to be annihilated from the face of the earth. It’s all this same continuing spiritual war between the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan as God is working out His purpose for history and Satan is trying desperately to prevent God from crushing him and the Jews are a key to that and that’s why he wants to annihilate them before they can repent.

Ankerberg: Jimmy, the thing that we’re talking about and we want to get across to people, these events, do they seem that farfetched right now?

DeYoung: The stage is set. Every actor is moving into place and the curtain is about to go up. Like never before in history, the scenario God lays out in His Word is moving into position. You pick up a paper, you tune in a television newscast or a radio news report, it’s giving us continuing evidence. I think I’m listening to prophecy features sometimes when I listen to national news or international news. It’s giving us the evidence of how God is allowing these nations to move into position to do exactly what Rennie just said.

Ankerberg: In light of these events and what the Bible says, how should Christians live?

DeYoung: You should live anticipating His coming today. Because there’s not one thing that has to happen before the Rapture of the Church comes to snatch those who know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior out of this world. Do you know what Jesus said in the Upper Room to His disciples? He said, “I tell you”—He was talking about His crucifixion and resurrection—“I tell you these things before they happen so that when they do happen, you will know I am who I said I am.” God lays out all this information so that we can know who He is and turn to Him.

Ankerberg: Next week we want to talk about something that’s on the wire tonight. Henry Kissinger just wrote an article in his daily syndicated column, his weekly syndicated column in the New York Post calling for the PLO to change, to actually change 30 of the 33 clauses in the PLO’s national covenant that calls for the destruction of Israel or urges violence against Israel. And he says this was done in 1993. No such change has been made. Nor has the PLO specified which particular articles will be changed or when they will go into effect, and by not doing it, by leaving the covenant the way it is, calling for the destruction of Israel, the PLO, he says, “is sending a clear message that it has not renounced violence nor accepted Israel’s right to exist.” Talk about anti-Semitism. Talk about the Arab world turning against Israel. We want to talk about this in our next program. I hope that you’ll join us.. 

Does Israel Have the Right to Exist as a Nation?

Ankerberg: Welcome to our program. We’re talking about what the Bible has to say is going to happen in the future. The God of the Bible says that you can tell that He’s there by looking at events that He said would come about that have already come about in the past, such as Jesus Himself, the Messiah. But also we’ve got events that are still to be fulfilled and God talks about what the nations are going to do. What’s going to happen to Israel? And we’ve been talking about the Arab confederacy. We’ve been talking about Russia. We’ve been talking about the European Union of nations. We’ve been talking about the Asian countries and how these all play a role in prophecy that’s still to come and how world events are shaping up right now.

As we tape this program, it’s interesting, and Jimmy DeYoung, I’d like you to answer this if you would. Henry Kissinger in his weekly syndicated column in the New York Post has joined a growing list of prominent Americans and Israelis who have publicly now called on the PLO to change 30 of the 33 clauses in the PLO National Covenant that called for the destruction of Israel or that urge violence against Israel. Now, Kissinger is simply saying this, and I’m going to quote him: “Dropping from the PLO charter the mandate to eradicate Israel is symbolically important, which is the reason why the PLO’s delay in carrying out this commitment is so disquieting.” Actually, in 1993 they told the world they were going to change the charter; they haven’t done it yet. Kissinger says, “No such changes have been made nor has the PLO specified which particular articles will be changed or when they will go into effect. By leaving the covenant intact [the PLO charter] the PLO is sending a clear message that it has not renounced violence nor accepted Israel’s right to exist.” Jimmy, what is going on with the PLO? Why haven’t they changed the charter? Do you think they intend to?

DeYoung: I don’t believe they intend to. The reason they have not changed it, that is still their goal—to eliminate the Jewish presence in the Middle East through armed struggle. Right here in my file I have a copy of the Palestinian Covenant, and in my file also in my office I have a copy of a letter that Yasser Arafat sent the first week of September in 1993 promising Yitzhak Rabin, number one, he would denounce terrorism; number two, he would do everything he could to get rid of terrorism in the Middle East and in particular Israel, and number three, he would change the Palestinian Covenant taking out those clauses in question. In this last year, they have had a meeting of the PNC, the Palestinian National Council. The purpose was, propagated to the world anyway, that they were going to come together and change the Palestinian Covenant. At the conclusion of that meeting, Shimon Peres who was the Prime Minister announced to the world the most historic event in the last 100 years had taken place because the Palestinians had changed the Palestinian Covenant. President Bill Clinton, based upon that statement, invited Yasser Arafat to Washington, DC to be his special guest in the White House. This man who is the world’s best-known terrorist, responsible for more Jewish blood on his hands than any other man since Adolf Hitler, responsible for over 1,000 Palestinian deaths, those deaths coming at his command, this man was a guest of the President of the United States propagating to the world that they had changed the covenant. And as I speak, and as Henry Kissinger gives us evidence, that Palestinian Covenant has not been changed because their intentions are still the same: they want to wipe out the Jewish presence in the Middle East.

Ankerberg: Elwood, where is this going? Why is this continuing? We have another statement that was made just 30 days ago that the 22 nation Arab League condemned Netanyahu for opening the tunnel and actually urged the Palestinian Arabs to go toward violence.

McQuaid: Yes. And in addition to what Jimmy said, an integral part of the Oslo Accords states that the Palestinian Liberation Organization, the Palestinian Council, will amend that charter. I don’t believe they intend to amend it either. And I think in evidence of that is that Yasser Arafat is constantly making statements in various venues, that is, if he’s talking to those who are involved in the peace process, he is a man of peace. He’s calling for Jihad constantly when he’s talking to Arab audiences. That means holy war to destroy Israel.

The Arab League does the same thing. In Iran they have just initiated a new terrorist organization called International Hezbollah that is dedicated to more bombings, bus bombings in Israel; training people to do that, and to do more to not only commit terrorist acts in Israel but also in the Western World as well. Now, the reason for that goes right back to something we discussed during this series of programs: that the issue in the Middle East is not essentially territorial, it is not essentially even an Arab-Jew problem. It is the commitment by radical elements in the Islamic Movement, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Palestinian Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Hezbollah, and we would include elements in Intifada and they are committed to destroying Israel because they believe it is an infidel entity that must be destroyed in the name of Allah. Yasser Arafat early on said this. He said, ‘I’ll make peace with Israel.” He said, “I’ll make peace with them back to the ‘67 lines. I’ll make an agreement back to the ‘48 lines. And if I can achieve a Palestinian state within those entities, I will give you a Jewless Palestine in the very near future.” Is he still committed to that? I believe he is. A growing number of Israelis and world leaders like Henry Kissinger believe he is also.

Ankerberg: Rennie, what strikes me is that you have not only the 22 nation Arab confederacy but you have a president like Hosni Mubarak from [Egypt] making a statement just a few days ago in Time magazine. He is “very, very, very upset and the whole Arab world is boiling over the issues right now.” You hear what Jimmy and what Elwood just said about this almost irreconcilable hatred that is stemming from the Palestinian Arabs. They said they would change the charter. They haven’t. The Arab world is joining them and the rest of the world doesn’t seem to be too upset about what is happening. How does this fit into biblical prophecy?

Showers: Well, for one thing you mentioned Mubarak, the President of Egypt, and Daniel 11 indicates that in the future Tribulation, Egypt together with Syria will launch a joint attack against Israel trying to destroy it. They will not succeed in that. That will pull in the Antichrist from the European Union into the Middle East. But, again, in the overall scenario it fits the picture again of Satan’s war against God; that Satan will use any instruments he can to annihilate Israel from the face of the earth because God has ordained Israel to play a key role in the fulfillment of God’s purpose for history.

Ankerberg: Questions [from the audience].

Audience: First of all, I want to say thank you for being here and presenting this program. I think it’s an opportunity to encourage men and women of God to study the Word and be prepared for these times that are coming. My question is, in Ezekiel Chapter 39, verse 9 talks about a time period immediately after the scenario of Magog attacks Israel. The weapons are gathered and it takes about seven years to burn these weapons. And we know that the Tribulation period is seven years long. My question is, two parts, real quickly, first of all, do you think that this attack upon Israel will happen before or after the Rapture? And secondly, why would the United States allow Russia to have such an opportunity to attack the nation of Israel?

DeYoung: To the second part of that question, Why would the United States allow it? I believe that at the Rapture of the Church, the United States is going to be nullified basically as a superpower of the world because there are enough Christians in the United States of America to give America the backbone that we do have today, whatever that backbone may be. You take them out at the Rapture of the Church, then America which is on the slippery slope to economic decay, the slippery slope to moral decay and every other kind of decay you can think about, the slopes will be greased and they will go immediately into oblivion as far as a superpower is concerned. The only physical entity that is stopping Russia, the Islamic world, the “kings of the east,” or anybody from coming in and trying to destroy Israel is the United States of America and that’s the only reason that God has blessed them in these last days.

McQuaid: The late Prime Minister of Israel, Menachem Begin, said some years ago in Washington, DC, “Israel has really only two true friends in the world. Some Evangelical Christians and some of our own people.” Now, that was a monumental statement reflecting the importance of what Jimmy just said. Evangelical Christians really hold the balance for the security of Israel in the United States today.

Ankerberg: What about the weapons?

Showers: John, let me address the first part of his question: Will this attack by Russia and Islamic nations against Israel take place before or after the Rapture? I’m convinced it will be after the Rapture. And the reason for that is, Ezekiel 38 makes it very clear. This will come when Israel feels so safe and so secure in its homeland that it has let down its own defenses. And that’s not true of Israel now, but it will be true of Israel during the first half of the Tribulation period as a result of that covenant that Antichrist of Western Europe will confirm with Israel guaranteeing its national security. And according to Daniel 9:27 that covenant is not confirmed until the very beginning of the seven-year Tribulation period and our understanding is the Church will be raptured out before the Tribulation begins.

DeYoung: It could leave actually a space between the Rapture and the confirmation of that peace agreement. It could be a day, a year, a month, ten years possibly. The battle that’s talked about in Ezekiel 38 could start to take place then, or at least it will start to take place in the very beginning of the seven-year period of time and I think there’s precedent in biblical studies that when you say “seven years” that could be the portion of seven years. So it doesn’t have to be absolutely 365 days times seven for those weapons to be burned. It could be a portion of a year which would then constitute seven years.

Audience: The panel has said that the Antichrist would be political but also a religious figure. So with the rise of the European Union as the resurrection of the Roman Empire and with the newfound interest of the Vatican with Israel, do you think that the Antichrist could come out of the Vatican?

DeYoung: Well, I don’t think necessarily that the Antichrist will come out of the Vatican. The Bible you cannot exegete it to say that. I do believe it will come out of the Revived Roman Empire which could possibly be the European Community or at least the European Community as the infrastructure for that revived Roman Empire. The Antichrist comes out of that and I believe that he is indeed going to rule over a one world church. It will be headquartered in the city of Rome, according to Revelation Chapter 17. At the midway point he moves to Jerusalem, desecrates the temple, and I think in the last three and a half years he’s headquartered in the actual literal city of Babylon where a worldwide economy is established and Antichrist will rule over that.

Showers: The prophetic Scriptures make it very clear that the Antichrist will be a political ruler. But Revelation 17 makes it very clear that during the first part of his rule, he will be allied with an apostate religious system. But once he gains full power and has gotten everything out of that religious system he wants, and then when he’s ready to declare he’s God, Revelation 17 indicates he will turn against that apostate religious system and annihilate it from the face of the earth and then announce that he is God. But then he will announce he’s God so that he’s going to be very definitely a religious figure in that respect because he’ll be worshipped by many people of the world but he’ll still be a great political ruler in the world.

McQuaid: I think there’s a practical aspect that we can learn from that today. There are so many people today who are voting their pocketbooks, even Evangelical Christians, and who are in actuality lining their religion along with their political commitments. And I think that the ones who mourn the passing of Babylon in 17 and 18 of Revelation are merchant kings who weep over this economic system that has fed them to the full and I think that there’s a very great lesson for that. The amalgamation of a religious leader and an economic leader is a natural in the last days.

Audience: First of all, John, I’d like to thank you for being on this program and answering our questions. Dr. DeYoung had mentioned the Ark of the Covenant. I’ve read quite a bit on the Ark and there are different theories about if the Ark’s even here yet. Some people think the Ark was taken off by God to the heavenly temple. Others under the Temple Mount. I’ve read some people believe it’s in Ethiopia. I’m sure there are some people in the world who believe Harrison Ford has it stashed in his basement. But my question is, what is your opinion? I’d like all three gentlemen’s opinion on this. What is your opinion on where the Ark is and do you have biblical Scripture to back that. And is it necessary for the Ark to be discovered before they build the temple?

DeYoung: I believe, number one, that it is necessary for the Tribulation temple for the Ark of the Covenant to be there because of the fact that in order for the Jewish people who are preparing to build the temple right now, they must have the Ark of the Covenant. In the Millennial Temple which will be standing in Jerusalem during the Thousand-Year Millennial Kingdom, Jeremiah 3:16 says we don’t need the Ark anymore. The reason for that, the Ark was a prototype of Jesus Christ, and when you have the real thing, you don’t need the model. So He’ll be here for the Millennial Temple, but for that Tribulation temple it will have to be there.

Is it in Ethiopia? I do not believe so. I believe it is underneath the Temple Mount. I have talked to two men, two very prestigious rabbis who said they came within inches of bringing the Ark of the Covenant out. One man said he took a mirror, looked around a wall and saw the Ark of the Covenant. He was a very prestigious rabbi. I would not stake my life on it but I believe he’s talking about what he said and he said, “By the way, that’s simple. Extrabiblical writing tells us exactly where the Ark of the Covenant is. And the Bible talks about Hezekiah, I believe the king was, who said, “Take the ark and put it in the special place prepared for it right now.” Not in the temple but a special place prepared.

Ankerberg: Oh, by the way, why did he not bring it out?

DeYoung: Why did he not bring it out? There was not any place to house it. You have to have the temple standing on the Temple Mount. He said, “We will bring it”…I asked him that question. He said, “We will bring it out when the temple is standing there and we’re ready to put it in its location.”

Ankerberg: Is that becoming the motivation to build the third temple?

DeYoung: Absolutely! And all those, I know every personality and every project involved in preparations to build the third temple, all of those personalities accepted this man as a very, very scholarly rabbi and believe exactly what he had to say.

Ankerberg: Elwood? Rennie?

Showers: Another view as to what happened to it was that it was destroyed by the Babylonians or carried by the Babylonians to their country when they destroyed Solomon’s temple in the city of Jerusalem in 586 BC. Interestingly, the second temple that the Jews built when they returned from the Babylonian captivity which later on Herod took over and enlarged never had the Ark of the Covenant in it. So for centuries the Jews worshipped God at the second temple without the Ark of the Covenant. So they didn’t have to have it there at that time to be worshipping God at the temple.

If it is in existence today, and it may very well be, I’m convinced as well it’s not down in Ethiopia. You know, the tradition has been that the Queen of Sheba came up from there. She had relations with Solomon. They gave birth to a son. And she and the son took the true Ark of the Covenant down to Ethiopia, left a duplicate of it in Solomon’s temple. To me, one of the big problems with that is, only the priests of Israel were allowed to touch that Ark and carry it. These were Gentile people. They would have been stricken dead on the spot of they had taken that. In fact, who could have gone inside the Holy of Holies to bring it out when only the high priest was allowed to go in there and one day out of the year, the Day of Atonement, and even then if he didn’t go in there exactly the way God prescribed, he would have been stricken dead on the spot. So I’m convinced it’s not down in Ethiopia.

McQuaid: There’s another theory that Jeremiah took the tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant, hid it in a cave, and then forgot where it was; that they lost it. The best bet scenario is that it’s vaulted under the northeast corner of the temple. When the implements of the temple that were carried to Babylon were mentioned in Scripture, the Ark was not mentioned. They had plenty of time to hide it and the priests certainly would have done something responsible with the Ark before the Babylonians destroyed the city.

DeYoung: Let me just say this, John. I was wrong on the king. It was not Hezekiah; it was Josiah. And it’s 2 Chronicles 35:3 and Josiah tells the Levites to take the Ark and put the Holy Ark in the house. It had been in the temple already for 400 years. He wasn’t telling them to put it in the Holy of Holies, he was saying, “Put it in the house,” and the Hebrew word there basically is saying, “Put it in the special place prepared to protect it.”

Ankerberg: Question.

Audience: Earlier, one of you gentlemen said that you thought that the Revived Roman Empire would occupy largely the same geographical limits that the original Roman Empire did. In Daniel 2:40-45 the first prophetic picture of the Gentile world power was, of course, the image and the two legs was the bottom of the Roman Empire and the Scripture says that the Lord as a rock that was hewn out without hands would come and consume it. Why is it not a popular view that the Eastern Roman Empire, which all the Arab countries now comprise, may be the Eastern Roman Empire in place?

Showers: Okay, the two legs there of the image, I’m convinced, do represent the two divisions of the ancient Roman Empire. By Constantine’s time, the Empire becomes so huge that one man was not able to govern the entire thing and so Constantine divided it into two halves: the Western half with Rome the capital; the Eastern half with Constantinople as the capital. May I point out, though, that it’s not the Arab nations where they are today that really was the total part of the Eastern Roman Empire. In fact, the Arabs under Mohammed’s teaching and everything were the ones that kept hammering away at the Eastern Roman Empire to destroy it. And what they’re attacking was from Constantinople west in taking in your Eastern European nations. Granted, they did come up and take control of Israel and Egypt and parts of North Africa which had been part of the Roman Empire, but there was a major part of the eastern half of the Roman Empire that was totally separate from the Arabs until the Arabs destroyed it finally in 1453 AD.

DeYoung: And, indeed, the Ottoman Empire came to power–look at Turkey, for example, came to power and wiped out that Roman influence that had been there for the many years they had been.

Questions & Answers

Ankerberg: Question.

Audience: Is it true that Saddam Hussein is trying to rebuild historical Babylon and is that significant prophetically?

DeYoung: Well, I believe he is indeed endeavoring to rebuild historic Babylon. And in fact the truth is of the matter that a good Christian friend of all of us who is at Dallas Seminary, Charlie Dyer, has been into that Babylon twice, wrote a book on the subject, and testifies of the literal aspect. I saw July 25, 1990, Diane Sawyer, Prime Time Live, do an exclusive interview in the palace at Baghdad with Saddam Hussein. During that one-hour interview they did what we call in television parlance a sound bite for about a minute. They switched to Babylon. She was walking down the wall. She said, “This wall, see that brick right there. It has Nebuchadnezzar’s name on it. That’s an original brick.” She walked further and said, “They’re refurbishing the wall. Do you see that one right there. It has Saddam Hussein’s name on it.”

Indeed, I can tell you that the President of the United States at the time of the Gulf Crisis, George Bush, gave a direct order not to touch the city of Babylon because Babylon is yet to be destroyed. During the time of the Gulf Crisis we would get in a taxi and it seemed like everybody, including the taxi drivers in Israel, were prophecy teachers. They’d say, “Well, does this look like the fulfillment of Jeremiah 50 and 51?” That fulfillment of Jeremiah 50 and 51 has never happened. Babylon has never been destroyed, devastated as Sodom and Gomorrah will be. The Book of Revelation Chapter 18 talks about the destruction of Babylon. The Book of Revelation Chapter 16 says Babylon will be destroyed because God will bring vengeance upon Babylon. The reason was, Nebuchadnezzar brought the implements out of the temple back to Babylon and God will bring vengeance.

And it’s interesting to note in Chapter 50 of the Book of Jeremiah the Medes will rise up in those last days to assist the destruction of Babylon. The Medes are the modern-day Kurds, the Kurdistan people that are in northern Iraq, western Iran and eastern Turkey. Those who want to destroy Saddam Hussein. Had, during the Gulf Crisis, the United States of America not withdrawn their air power, the Kurds would have come down with the Shiite Moslems coming up from the south and they would have destroyed Saddam Hussein.

Ankerberg: So what do you think is going to happen with Saddam Hussein?

DeYoung: Well, I don’t see the Bible saying if Saddam Hussein wants to stay in life or not. He is an unbelievable man. In fact, he is still eager…during the Gulf Crisis we heard on radio reports when he would finish the radio broadcast to his nation about what was going on, he said, “Until we meet together in the city of Jerusalem.” He said, “There’s been only one people in the history of man who ever defeated the Israelis and that was us. We went in. We captured them. We controlled the world.” He’s talking about that he is a descendant of Nebuchadnezzar, of course, which he claims to be. In fact, he claims to be the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar. But Iraq is positioned for that fulfillment.

Babylon is in position. I believe it will be the economic capital of the world. The reason I say that: Had Saddam Hussein been successful in the Gulf Crisis, he controlled Iraq, he controlled Kuwait, he wanted to go into Saudi Arabia. Had he done that, he would have controlled 63% of the oil deposits of the world and any economist, and I have clippings in my files of world renown economists saying if you control 63% of the oil deposits of the world, you control the economy of this world. From Babylon itself on a computer network the Antichrist, I believe, can rule a one world economy during the last three and a half years at which time it will be destroyed.

McQuaid: I think it’s Saddam Hussein putting a brick in the wall beside that of Nebuchadnezzar gives a witness of the arrogance of degenerate men who see themselves in imperial sized portraits as he likes to put around Baghdad. I’m not so sure about this rebuilding of the city of Babylon and that being the center of the world economy. I think rather the emphasis to be considered is that Babylonish system that engulfs the entire world and God is going to judge that system. So I think perhaps Babylon rebuilt but the emphasis we should see is that entire system that’s anti-God, anti-Christ is what God is going to condemn.

Ankerberg: Question.

Audience: Yes. When the one world religion is brought about in the Tribulation, they’re going to need a Bible to have a say-so over everything. Do you think that the new Bibles that are out today, such as NIV, NASB will be like the predecessor to this Bible?

Showers: Revelation 17, which is the greatest revelation we have on that apostate religion says nothing about a book that they’re going to use as a Bible. And I do not see all of the newer translations as evil in the sight of God in all honesty. Interestingly, I know there are a lot of people that are King James Only, but interestingly, there were English Bibles before the King James came along and if you believe that God has preserved His Word carefully through the centuries, which I believe He has, then one of those had to have been the true Word of God in the English language before the King James. And what was the necessity, then, of the King James if they already had the Word of God in the English language? I have great respect for the King James and I use it in my studies, in my preaching, etc., but I’m not convinced that all the newer translations are evil in the sight of God.

Ankerberg: Yes. The King James before the King James was the Latin Vulgate and before that it was the Greek New Testament and if you really want to have a full answer, I actually got the editors together of the New King James, the King James Only people, the American Standard Version, and Revised Standard Version. I think we had them all there in the same room to face that question, and if you like, it’s 8 half hours of those guys talking among themselves.

McQuaid: What about something like this transpiring. You know, when Adolf Hitler was in the process of destroying the Church as well as the Jewish people, he envisioned a German church and actually established the German church and he said that on every altar in Germany would be Mein Kampf rather than the Bible. We have the sayings of Mao Tse Tung that a whole people followed. What about the Antichrist having his own little booklet that becomes the Bible for the world at that time?

Audience: What do you believe will be the extent of the Antichrist’s kingdom throughout during the Tribulation?

Showers: He will definitely want to bring the whole world under his dominion but I’m not convinced he’s going to pull that off in all honesty because, again, the Scriptures indicate different power blocs in the world. As mentioned before, the kings of the east and Russia and its Islamic allies, etc., that are going to be power forces in the world at the same time the Antichrist is. He will try to bring the whole world under his dominion but I’m not totally convinced that he’s going to be able to do that.

Ankerberg: Okay. Question?

Audience: I’ll address this to Jimmy DeYoung. Is there any biblical evidence that the Antichrist will come out of Syria?

DeYoung: I don’t see any biblical evidence of it. As I look at Daniel Chapter 7, the “little horn” comes out of the ten horns that come together, Revived Roman Empire. As I look at Revelation Chapter 13, it talks about basically the same thing as Daniel Chapter 7 and it says that it’s coming out of the Gentile world of the Revived Roman Empire so I don’t see Antichrist coming out of Syria.

Ankerberg: Let’s hit them all. I’ve heard he’s coming out of Spain. What about that one?

DeYoung: Well, that’s possible because of the fact it would be part of the Revived Roman Empire. But I don’t think it’s King Carlos, by the way.

Showers: Only the Lord knows that and I think people are conjecturing now trying to name specific ones or what country they’re going to come from are way off base. They’re going way beyond what the Scriptures permit us to go at the present time.

Ankerberg: I’ve heard Helmut Kohl.

McQuaid: Yes, Helmut Kohl, Henry Kissinger….and coming out of the United States. However, the thing that we need to always guard against is being distracted by things that are so intriguing in themselves that they turn us from a central purpose, that is to make Christ known and to look for His Coming. Our business is not to look for the Antichrist, not to name the Antichrist, and I believe that one of the reasons why God keeps us from that and directs us away from that is that our attention may always be on the imminent return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Showers: John, it’s very interesting. One of the very early Church Fathers, if I remember correctly it was Irenaeus, who was taught by a man who was taught by the Apostle John, in one of his writings, apparently people back then were trying specifically to identify who the Antichrist would be and he issued a warning against that and said that we dare not try to identify the Antichrist at all. The Scriptures did not permit us to do that because all the Scriptures indicates is that he will rise to power from within that future Revived Roman Empire but it doesn’t say what part of the empire, what country or his name.

Ankerberg: Let’s talk about this thing of setting dates for the return of Christ, too. Just a couple of years ago we had a ton of people that thought Jesus was coming and Scripture says not to do that. What continues to motivate folks to set the date? What’s the warning of Scripture along that line?

Showers: I guess it’s just a curiosity but people have done that from time to time during the centuries and the closer we get to the year 2000 we’re going to be bombarded by that. We’re already starting. And may I point out, and there’s evidence for this from the New Testament Scriptures, the coming of Christ to Rapture the Church was just as imminent in New Testament times as it is today. Now, please, imminency is not the same as “soon.” If you look at James 5:7-9, James made this statement: “The coming of the Lord” literally “has drawn nigh; the judge is standing at the door.” It’s significant to note in both those statements James put the verb in the perfect tense. Now, the Greek perfect tense, the significance of it is, it’s referring to a completed action in the past, but the results of it continue on. So James was saying that the coming of the Lord had drawn near even before James wrote his letter and it continues to be near even while James was writing his letter and that Jesus in a sense took his standing at the door of heaven even before James began to write his letter and continues to stand there. The implication being, He could step through that door of Heaven at any moment.

Ankerberg: And you better watch out.

Showers: Yeah. And in fact, that’s what James said. You better be careful how you treat your fellow believers because the Judge is standing right at the door. In other words, the fact that He could come at any moment, even back then, should make a difference in how you’re living now. We know that from our perspective today, even though it was imminent back then, it wasn’t “soon” back then because almost 2,000 years have gone by since James wrote his epistle and the Lord still hasn’t come. Imminency is the concept He could come at any moment. And as soon as you set a date, you’ve destroyed the concept of imminency because then you’ve said He can’t come until this date and that ruins the concept He could come at any moment. And so if you set a date, you are militating against the New Testament teaching of the imminency of Christ’s return.

DeYoung: Well, let me just take exception with that. I want to set a date that I believe Jesus Christ is going to come to gather the Church up. It’s today! Because in Acts Chapter 1, those disciples standing on the Mount of Olives as Jesus was gathered up in that cloud, having been told He would come back, the Bible said they were steadfastly looking toward Heaven. I always didn’t understand why “steadfastly,” but they were anticipating His coming. The Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 says in verse 13 and following, we will see the Rapture. He expected it to take place that day. Indeed, at the conclusion of His ministry of some 30 years, he says in 2 Timothy 4:8, I have a crown of righteousness and all that eagerly await His coming. Now listen, I hope and pray He comes today. If He doesn’t come today and you see me tomorrow, I’ll predict He’s coming tomorrow. I believe and I want to live my life in light of the fact He indeed is coming today.

Showers: And that’s imminency.

McQuaid: Now let me give you the rest of the story. You see, the big fallacy, John, is that people are enamored with date setting, to associate the Rapture of the Church with a date. The Rapture of the Church has absolutely nothing to do with a date. That’s why date-setters will always be wrong. It has to do with a number, that is, the gathering of the bride of Christ. That’s our focus. That’s our mission. That’s our obsession. Make Him known. Make Him known. Make Him known. When that job is completed, and only He knows when that will be, we’re going to find ourselves reposing at His once wounded side. But about this matter of imminence, you know, I was reading through 1 Thessalonians 4 again just the other day and I was reminded, when the Apostle Paul said, “And then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.” So he was expecting to be one of those who would be raptured. So the Apostle Paul said that. I and agree with Rennie and Jim.

Ankerberg: Rennie, let me ask you a question about 2 Thessalonians 2 where it said these things can’t happen “until.” And it sounds like we’re talking about the Rapture there. A lot of people have gotten confused on that. Help us out.

Showers: Some of the translations say that the day of Christ cannot come until the apostasy and the revelation of the man of sin. The Greek text literally says “the day of the Lord” cannot come. And that’s different from the Rapture. The day of the Lord is going to be the seven-year Tribulation period plus the Second Coming of Christ after the Tribulation plus the Millennium.

Ankerberg: Both good and bad events.

Showers: Yes, both good and bad events. Let me share a humorous thing with regard to date setting. Just a few years ago there was a rather prominent radio Bible teacher who published a book that the Lord was going to return in September of a certain year. Well, every year his ministry takes over one of the Bible conferences on the East Coast for a week of Bible conference and people come in to attend it that listen to his radio broadcast. And he was there that year in June that he said the Lord would return in September. Well, at the end of that week of conference they came to the directors of the conference and said, “Could we schedule that same week next year for your conference?” And they said, “Isn’t that a little inconsistent? You’ve been saying the Lord’s going to return in September of this year. Why do you want to rent our conference for next year?”

Ankerberg: Question.

Q. The Word of God talks about a woman being preserved and earlier, Dr. DeYoung, you talked about a piece of land where God was going to preserve some Jewish people. How does all this tie in together?

DeYoung: Revelation Chapter 12 is talking about and describing this woman who brought forth the manchild which I believe is the nation of Israel, and as you study through Chapter 12 you see in verse 6 that God has prepared a special place. He says in Chapter 6 it’s in the mountains. Matthew 24 says “flee for the wilderness.” And as you stop to think about it, the location that I suppose is going to be where they’re going to house these Jews during the last 3-1/2 years to protect them would be the location called Petra, 25 square miles that was the impregnable city during the times of the Edomites and during the times of the Nabataeans. You can only get into the city through a Siq which is a narrow gorge almost 500 feet high, 18 feet wide. It’s about a mile and third as you go in there. There are already God-made caves and man-made caves and places for people to be housed during that time. I believe Petra is the location that God has prepared and is going to take care of His people during that last 3-1/2 years. And the woman of Revelation Chapter 12 is the nation of Israel.

Ankerberg: Alright. Two more questions.

Audience: In addition to the Ark of the Covenant, the ashes of the red heifer are needed for Jewish Tribulation temple worship and what is the status of the search for the ashes of the red heifer?

McQuaid: Well, the Jewish rabbis will tell you–those who are involved in this Temple Institute and others who are preparing for sacrificial worship that it would be nice if the ashes of the red heifer were discovered but that isn’t necessary; that they’re in the process now of attempting to breed red heifers that would be acceptable to reinstitute that worship.

DeYoung: Numbers 19 talks about the ashes of the red heifer being an everlasting covenant. So there is some discussion among these personalities preparing to build the temple as to do so they need some of or at least a portion of the original ashes of the red heifer. A friend of mine, a believer in Jesus Christ, is doing some excavation underneath the Antiquities Authority and their responsibilities at Qumran and there is suggestion through seismic readings and ground penetrating radar, satellite, NASA-like technology that’s looked into the ground underneath the plateau at Qumran and they have protected… now listen, don’t you dare go out and say that Jimmy DeYoung said it’s absolute, but potential. They have projected that there are canisters underneath that plateau that have some kind of ashes in them. And so the projection is that possibly that would be the ashes of the red heifer. I believe whether it’s through what Elwood brought out, the fact that they are breeding now red heifers. In fact, they have made preparation and got Israeli approval to bring those red heifers from Mississippi where they have been bred into Israel or whether they find the original ashes. But somehow they will have ashes to go for the Tribulation temple. Those ashes are not needed during the Millennial Temple when Jesus Christ rules and reigns from the Holy of Holies.

Audience: Since you gentlemen give a lot of time and energy to prophecy, on a scale of one to ten, how much emphasis do you give to the Great Commission both in interpretation and implementation?

Showers: We give great emphasis to it. In fact, one of the reasons that I teach as part of my ministry prophecy is because I have found it to be a very effective evangelistic tool. One church that had asked me to come and do a prophecy conference, the leaders of the church had trained their people very well to invite business associates, etc., to come to the conference. One woman there invited all the people that worked with her in her office and all of them came. And eight of those people got saved just in the prophecy conference. At that same conference there was a men’s breakfast. One of the men invited the superintendent of the whole public school system of that city. That man got saved. The superintendent of the public schools got saved through a prophetic message. And so I believe that God has revealed these future events not to satisfy our curiosity but to change the hearts and lives of people. To bring unsaved people to the saving knowledge of Christ and to shake Christians loose from their lethargy and make them evaluate their lives. What am I doing with my life that will count for eternity and what should be the priorities of my life? But prophetic teaching is only one phase of my ministry. And, by the way, I’m associated full-time with The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry and the major thrust of our ministry as a mission board is evangelism, trying to reach Jewish people and in the process Gentiles as well all over the world with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to play a role in the fulfillment of that commission.

McQuaid: You know, there is a phrase in the 36th chapter on through, and it’s this: “And they shall know that I am the Lord.” “And they shall know that I am the Lord.” This is the most frequently occurring phrase in that entire prophetic element of Scripture. And I believe the emphasis there is that God is bearing His heart and allowing us to look in and see. What does He want us to teach? What does He want us to learn? What does He want us to know? That He wants men to know Him. Where does that take us? It takes us right back to the commission Jesus Christ gave us 2000 years ago. And I believe that if one is a competent prophetic teacher, that the reason God gives us prophecy is to tell us not what the future is about–yes, that’s involved–but what we should be doing about it right now: and that’s to evangelize.

DeYoung You know, the disciples in Acts 1, they were steadfastly looking toward heaven waiting for Jesus to come back, but they didn’t sit down on their blessed assurance. Chapter 17 of the Book of Acts, verse 6 says they went out and turned the worldwide right side up. It actually says upside down but it’s already upside down. They started turning it right side up. I’ve had the joy and Rennie’s had the joy also of being with a dear missionary in Italy. And he didn’t want to do prophecy for so many years and finally he said, “Okay, Jimmy. Do a prophecy conference for us.” We traveled all over the state of Italy and we had the greatest evangelistic meetings ever in Italy through the vehicle of prophecy. One last thought. Daniel 9, prophecy, verses 24 to 27, pinpoints the time Jesus Christ the Messiah would come. He had to come 69 weeks after the decree was given to go back and rebuild the city of Jerusalem. That’s 483 years, 173,880 days after that was given Jesus Christ appeared on the Mount of Olives. He said, “If you had been studying the Scriptures you would have known I was to be here today.” That is absolute, when it uses prophecy to pinpoint who the Messiah is.

Ankerberg: One more question.

Audience: In reference to the possibility of a midtribulation Rapture, looking at two Scriptures, 2 Thessalonians which you cited a minute ago, and that term “our gathering together with him,” won’t happen until. And also in Revelation 6 where the sixth seal is broken and the wrath of God is then revealed toward men, contrasting that with Christians do not undergo the wrath of God.

Showers: Okay, first of all, let me address the sixth seal. It’s not John there that’s saying that the wrath of God comes with the sixth seal, it’s the unbelievers of the world saying that and unbelievers are usually wrong. In addition, the tense of the verb where they say, “The day of his wrath has come,” unless the context indicates otherwise, and a certain Greek structure which is there refers to a past action, and so that the unsaved there are saying the Day of the Lord came in the past but they didn’t recognize it until these cosmic disturbances. That obviously was from God and they recognized the Day of the Lord had already begun in the past. When you look at the first four seals, with the fourth seal, for example, one fourth of the world’s population is destroyed through war, famine, pestilence and wild beasts. In Ezekiel 14:21 God says these are my four sore judgments: war, famine, pestilence and wild beasts. God indicating those are elements of His wrath being poured out upon mankind and that’s at the fourth seal, two seals before the sixth seal.

With regard to 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is not saying there that our gathering together with the Lord cannot take place until the apostasy and the revelation of the man of sin. What was happening is, there were people coming to the Thessalonians after Paul had been there teaching a pretrib Rapture and saying, “Hey, you’re being persecuted as Christians; therefore, you’re already in the Day of the Lord.” And they were thereby attacking Paul’s doctrine of our gathering together to be with the Lord before the Tribulation and Paul is saying there, if you look at the language, he’s saying: for the sake of this teaching I gave you about our gathering together to be with the Lord before the Tribulation, let me tell you, you’re not in the Tribulation now. You’re not in the Day of the Lord now. And the reason you’re not in it is because the apostasy has to take place first and that hasn’t happened yet; and the revelation of the man of sin has to take place before the Day of the Lord and that hasn’t happened yet. And so Paul is not saying there that these things have to happen before the Rapture.

On top of that, if you hold to a midtribulation Rapture view, and we all agree the Tribulation hasn’t started yet, then you have to say the Lord can’t come and Rapture the Church for at least another 3-1/2 years and as soon as you say that, you’ve destroyed the whole New Testament concept of imminency because if He can’t come for another 3-1/2 years, then His coming is not imminent, that it could happen at any moment. And so the only view that fits the imminency concept of the Bible is the pretrib Rapture view because the midtrib says He can’t come for another 3-1/2 years; the pre-wrath says He can’t come for another five or five and a half years; the posttrib view says He can’t come for another seven years. As soon as you say He can’t come until a certain time, that destroys the whole New Testament concept of the imminency of Christ’s return.

DeYoung: John, on the question of the wrath of God or the wrath of man, Revelation Chapter 5 says that Jesus Christ is given the sealed book containing the seven seal judgments. Chapter 6, verse 1, “The Lamb opens the first seal.” Chapter 6, verse 3, “The Lamb opens the second seal.” Chapter 6, verse 5, “The Lamb opens the third seal.” Chapter 6, verse 7, “The Lamb opens the fourth seal, the fifth seal, the sixth seal.” Even Chapter 8, verse 1, “Silence in heaven for the space of half an hour. The Lamb opens that seal. As I understand just simply reading the Scripture in the literal understanding of it, the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is the One that opens the seals to release the judgments upon the earth.

Ankerberg: Guys, we want to say “thank you” for being our guests tonight and being with us. We appreciate all the hard study that you have put in and for your guidance in terms of world events and biblical prophecy. Thanks for being with us.